Connections Between HR and Marketing with Ron Tite, Church + State

In this episode of the HRchat show, we talk about the connections between the HR and Marketing departments. Our guest today is Ron Tite, Founder & Chief Creative Officer at Church + State.

An entrepreneur, speaker, and best-selling author, Ron Tite has always blurred the lines between art and commerce. He has been an award-winning advertising writer and Creative Director for some of the world’s most respected brands including Air France, DoorDash, Google, Intel, Microsoft, Volvo, Walmart, and many others.

Questions For Ron Include:

• You have a history of working in the marketing and advertising space and believe either HR has to report into marketing or marketing has to report to HR. How are the two departments interconnected and why should HR take it's direction from Marketing or v.v.? 
• What are some common HR activities previously managed by Marketing (e.g. projecting the employer brand).
• In a recent LinkedIn post, you wrote: "Employers are looking for people who can manage their relationships AND do their job. Especially now. In May 2020, nearly half of US workers reported feeling that their boss cared about their wellbeing. That number has since HALVED. Plus - workers who reported feeling uncared for by a boss were 69% more likely to look for a new job, or report suffering from burnout". Why do you suggest many leaders have reverted to pre-pandemic form and are being less empathetic/supportive of their employees?
• In another recent post, you shared some thoughts on work-life balance: "When we talk about work/life balance, we usually define it as "making sure my work life doesn't creep into my personal life". I think it's way more complicated than that. Often, our personal life creeps into our work life in the form of emotional distraction. The toughest part is that those people often feel like they can't or don't want to talk about it with their colleagues. It's difficult to acknowledge their efforts at work but we can certainly do it". How important is it to company culture that employees are able to share info on their personal lives with colleagues? What does this do to engagement levels? 
• Tell us about your latest book, "

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders for hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hr gazette.com.

Speaker 2: 0:25

Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. I'm your host today, bill Bannon , and joining me on this episode is the awesome, wonderful, super famous Ron Tight , founder and chief creative officer over at Church and State. An entrepreneur, speaker, and bestselling author, Ron Tight has always blurred the lines between art and commerce. He has been an award-winning advertising writer and creative director for some of the world's most respected brands, including Air France, DoorDash, Google Intel, Microsoft, Volvo, Walmart, and many, many more. He's the founder and chief executive officer over at Church and state hosts , uh, host and executive producer of the HIT podcast, the Coup. I always get really nervous listeners when I interview a fellow podcaster cause they're judging me. Uh , and he's the executive producer of the documentary film Fresh Water Ron has written for television, and , and he wrote and performed a hit play, created a branded art gallery. He's also published an award-winning comedy book, and for five years was executive producer and host of the award-winning comedy show, monkey Toast. Hey Ron, welcome to the show today.

Speaker 3: 1:40

Well, thank you Bill. Thank you very thanks for having me. And , and hello to everybody out there who's listening

Speaker 2: 1:46

<laugh>. I was saying to Ron before we hit record, it's such an honor to have Ron on the show. I'm , I'm a huge fan of Rob . He, he's a , he's a , he's a celebrity everywhere, but , um, particularly in, in Toronto where I spend a lot of my life , uh, he's just such a well known and well respected guy. So it's about time that I got Ron on, on the show today. Um, Ron, beyond my reintroduction there, why don't you start by taking a minute or two and telling our listeners a bit more about yourself.

Speaker 3: 2:10

Thank you. I , um, in addition to all that, I'm a , I'm a , I'm a father of two young boys , uh, four and a half , and two and a half Max and Ben and , uh, and husband too , my wife Christie . And yeah, I've kind of , you know , I've always blurred those lines, as you said in the introduction. I was a standup for 20 years, and that thinking has kind of really, the kind of the observation and gathering of insights from a comedian perspective and the structure of building comedy sets and stuff that has in it has influenced a lot. It's influenced my writing, it's influenced my speaking. I do about 70 speeches a year around the world , um, and just a really non-traditional , uh, skill and experience that surprisingly has added a lot of benefit in business.

Speaker 4: 3:03

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Speaker 2: 3:31

Wow. 70 talks a year. And, and those are largely in-person now that we're able to do that again, is that right?

Speaker 3: 3:37

Yeah, it , yeah, I, I, you know, am now back up to the pace I was in 2019, so September was my busiest month since 2019. And , uh, yeah, things are fully back. I mean , the nice part though is that there are still some stuff that happens virtually. So , uh, not next week, week after I need to go to Virginia to do a speech and somebody wanted me to do something, I was like, well, I can't do it in person, but I can do it virtually from Virginia. So that's what I'm doing. So I'm doing a virtual talk from another , uh, location, which is great and flexible for me and for , uh, for clients.

Speaker 2: 4:13

So , brave new World that we all live in, eh , um, okay. Tell me a little bit now, Ron , about the mission of church and state.

Speaker 3: 4:21

Well, church and state, I was used to be executive creative director at Havas. Another , you know, a , a , uh, international agency and s laugh to start my own thing. And it , what , but it wasn't like, I wanna do what they did, but cheaper or faster or smaller. I just thought that the , the worlds of content and editorial, or sorry, content and advertising were really being blurred as you moved into content creation, distribution through social platforms. Um, and nobody was looking at it that way. It was always like, agencies do one thing and broadcasters and magazines do another thing, and they're incredibly dependent on one another. Um, but nobody was dealing with the merger of these two worlds. And so that's what we do. We fundamentally believe that, you know, people used to vote with their wallets and now they vote with their time. And so whether you are the B B C or the Wall Street Journal, or you know, Google and Walmart, you simply have to win the battle for time. You gotta create stuff that is smart enough, relevant enough, timely enough entertainment, you know , entertain enough to simply win that battle for time. So that's what we focus on. And I would add Bill, you know, for a human resources audience, that those same rules applied inside the organization that to, you know, our ideas are adopted through how we communicate them inside an organization. When we get people on side to join us, that's typically because of how we've communicated them. And so those same rules apply inside that we need to create communications that are relevant enough, timely enough, interesting enough to , uh, win the battle for time with our colleagues so that they can join us.

Speaker 2: 6:05

You must be a mind greeter. Cause that's where I'm gonna go now. Yeah . When we did this interview, Rob <laugh>,

Speaker 3: 6:09

So, you know, because , because some of your listeners are going , he's a marketing guy, I'm not sure what this means. I fundamentally believe that marketing should either report to HR or HR should report to marketing.

Speaker 2: 6:22

Indeed. Indeed. And that's my next question for you . Okay . Because you , you have a history of working in the marketing advertising space, and as you just mentioned there, you , you believe that either HR has to report into marketing, or marketing has to report into hr. We've spoken a lot about the , the fact that HR is marketing in many ways these days on, on this show. In your opinion, how , how are the two departments interconnected and why should HR take its direction for marketing or vice versa?

Speaker 3: 6:50

The most powerful marketing campaign that any organization could come up with is somebody going into a business or interacting with a business, and that person delivering exactly what that person wants. With that way more powerful than any campaign that I could ever create or that we could ever create. And so there's that, and we look at the rise of experiences and people wanting brand experience, who are delivering those experiences, well, ambassadors of the organization, employees of the organization. And , uh, and where organizations fall is when they experience integrity gaps, which is when the actions of people inside an organization contradict what the organization supposedly stands for. So all these things are great marketing messages, but they typically sit within the realm and the purview of hr, because you need to re , you need to recruit those people, you need to train those people, you need to retain those people and compensate those people. And those people need to 100% be aligned on the purpose of the organization, whether they have a customer facing role or not. And so that's why I think it all ladders up that , um, if you start with the purpose of the organization, the think part, what do we fundamentally believe? Secondly, if that's what the organization believes, what do we need to do? What behaviors do you know we need to take on a daily basis? And every single department of the organization that reinforces that purpose. So that's the people layer, which is the purview of, of hr. And then the last part is, okay, if we think this and we do these things, how do we talk about it? Well, how do we talk about it? Is the simplest part. And that's kind of that marketing piece. But what marketing needs to talk about is what the organization fundamentally believes in and how the people behave to reinforce it .

Speaker 4: 8:42

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Speaker 2: 8:59

What , what are some of those common HR activities done today that are perhaps previously managed by, by marketing folks? Uh, so for example, the efforts around projecting the value of the employer brand,

Speaker 3: 9:13

Right? The, the, you know, we write something called the brand narrative, which is answers these five , every brand narrative, the story of a brand or the story of an organization should answer sequentially. These five questions. One, what's going on in the world? Two, what problem does that create? Three, what do we fundamentally believe about that problem? Four, how do we solve that problem? And five, why should you believe us? That's the story that every organization should have and articulate. And we spend a lot of time helping people do that. Now we, once you've got that story, then you slice and dice it and you slice and dice it for different audiences. So for , oh , marketing, we're gonna dial up this part a little bit. And, you know, and for , uh, the employer brand, well, you, it used to be like, that's a different group of people. It's internal comms and the external people don't wanna touch it. This is critically important and it's no longer the ugly cousin, if that's a term that's , that's even used is , or this whatever. It's no longer this like, you know, second class citizen. It's just as critical, if not more important than external comms. And , um, and so that , uh, the employer brand should be 100% consistent with the external brand. It's all coming from the same brand narrative. It is all communicating the exact same purpose. It's just the output means the , you know, the , uh, the meaning of it. So here's what this purpose means to you as a potential employee, and here's what this purpose means to you as a potential client, but it's the exact same comms .

Speaker 2: 10:50

Thank you. Ron. I wanna switch focus a little bit now , um, as part of, part of my homework ahead of this conversation , uh, I was all over your, your LinkedIn earlier. Um , I'm , I'm that guy. I'm, I'm stalking you on LinkedIn. I know more about you . And in a recent link in post you wrote the following, employers are looking for people who can manage their relationships and do their job. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , especially now in May, 2020, nearly half of US workers reported feeling that their boss cared about their wellbeing. That number has since halved, plus workers who reported feeling uncared for by a boss were 69% more likely to look for a new job or report suffering from burnout. My question for you, Rob, is why do you suggest that many leaders have reverted to type, have reverted pre pandemic form and are being less empathetic or supportive of their employees? Now,

Speaker 3: 11:44

There's a couple of things at play here. One is, hey managers , were managers. Were just as slammed managers, were dealing with , uh, really challenging home situations. Managers were dealing with trying to keep businesses afloat. Managers were , um, dealing with a , a , a level of stress that they had never experienced before. And so it's amazing how we started out saying like, we're all in this together. No, we're not. We're not all in this together . Every single one of us has a completely different situation. And over the pandemic. I think those unique situations were , uh, became much more , um, uh, obvious. Um, and that we used to think like, oh, we're all on the same team here and we all have the same challenges at , at the office. Well, when you start to blend those worlds of home and office, suddenly I got , I'm a 52 year old dude with a two and a half and a four and a half year old . My situation's completely different than everybody else my age. So , um, so managers start to deal with their own stuff. So that was number one. Number two , uh, we all became a little bit more selfish in terms of taking care of our families and our own personal situations. Um, the other thing I think was that they found it really, really difficult. It was pre pandemic. We are in this, what I call a straightaway, right? Eh , you're in the straightaway. This is everyone. Business is great and you just gotta put the pedal to the metal. The second you enter a corner. You need to kind of like slow the car down and you need to make really specific decisions that will fundamentally alter the course of the car. The challenges that managers didn't know what to do, they just didn't know what to do because it was unprecedented, because the, the future was so unclear. And I've talked a lot of this idea of now what, like that people wanna do the right thing. They just don't know what the right thing, they don't know what the right thing is right now, you know, because there's no clear answer. Are we saying people need to be back in the office five days a week because we're gonna collaborate that way? Are we saying no, we're gonna go and we're gonna celebrate the freedom of being at home? Uh , so people don't have to commute. There is no right answer, no right answer. And managers are stuck wanting to do the right thing, but they don't know what the right thing is. So they've just kind of reverted.

Speaker 2: 14:05

Watch your space on that one. Listeners, I , I interviewed the, the, the head of people analytics at Microsoft directly before this interview with Ron today. Uh, regular listeners of the show will know that , uh, we record these episodes in advance and then we release 'em a few weeks later. There will be some insights on, on some of the comments that Ron just made there. And , and some of these questions that we all have cuz uh , the , the team over at Microsoft are very busy trying to find out, for example, how often we need to be in the office to support the company culture. But that's , uh, that's just a teaser for the future. And , uh, it's not relevant in terms of the other questions that I'm gonna ask you. So I'll stop talking about that and continue through .

Speaker 3: 14:39

I look to listening to it though ,

Speaker 2: 14:41

<laugh> . Thank you. Um , I'll share it with you for sure. Uh , Rob , in another recent post on LinkedIn, you shared some thoughts on work-life balance. Uh , and you, you said as follows, when we talk about work-life balance, we usually define it as making sure my work life doesn't creep into my personal life. You shared a little bit about that a moment ago. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . Um , and then you added, I I think it's way more complicated than that. Often our personal life creeps into our work life in the form of emotional distraction. The toughest part of the toughest part of that. Those people often feel like they can't or don't want to talk about it with their colleagues. It's difficult to acknowledge their efforts at work, but we can certainly do it. So my question for you is, how important is it to the company culture that employees are able to share info on their personal lives to be authentic with colleagues? Um, what , what , what does that do to engagement levels?

Speaker 3: 15:32

I think it shoots engagement, engagement levels through the roof. Now, I, I think it's really critical. I , but I would, you know, I would never, ever compel somebody to share personal stuff. I think it comes with, some people are just far more comfortable, they're far more open. I certainly am. But I think what's been when you do that, why it improves engagement and why it really builds culture is we suddenly start to see the whole human being and we connect to the whole human being . And that there are so many people who come to work every day , be it in an officer virtually, and they show up looking and acting and sounding like the stock photo version that they think they're supposed to look and act and sound like. And it's either this is what a person at this company looks and acts and sounds like, or it's, this is what an HR person looks and acts and sounds like. And the result is the, their colleagues or, you know, the people that report to them think, well, if you're not comfortable sharing the real you with me, like if you're hiding the real you from me, my gut is says, what else are you hiding? But when you come out and you're willing to share challenges that you face on a daily basis , um, now suddenly people should , they're , they're , they're meeting the real you . They're not meeting your representative, your professional representative. And that builds trust and that builds collaboration and that builds culture Well, I remember saying to some on our team, like in a, in a, in a zoom call, like , I , you know, your roots are showing. And I was like, screw you. Like, no, no, like your roots, not your like roots of your hair, your roots, things that give you strength, the things that allow you to grow, the things that give you stability and the important things in your life like your children and your spouse and your pets and your art, and the, you know, the ugly couch your mother-in-law gave you, whatever, that we've all got a window into the real people we work with by getting a p you know, a peek inside their homes. And I love that. Um, and I hope that part stays

Speaker 2: 17:42

And you live it as well. I mean, when , when , when we started this conversation today and I said, please tell our listeners a bit more about yourself. You started off by saying, well , I'm a a father and I'm a partner, and so on and so forth. So you , you, you , you live by what you say, Ron , and I respect that. And by the way, I've got a two and a half year old as well. It's a challenge, but the best job that I've ever had in my life.

Speaker 3: 17:59

Yeah, it's incredible. It's incredible. But, but my , I gotta sore back. <laugh> .

Speaker 2: 18:07

Um, hey Ron , now tell me about your, your latest book. Uh, it's called Think Do Say, how to Seize Attention and Build Trust in a Busy, busy World. Um, tell me why did you write it, who it's aimed at, and what are some of the key lessons that readers would take away? And and also, you know , this book was released in October, 2019, I believe. Um mm-hmm. <affirmative> , things have changed a heck of a lot since then. So maybe you can point to a few of the lessons in the book that perhaps have changed since, since ,

Speaker 3: 18:33

Since it's been , yeah , I'm working on the next one. Um, that's a little more relevant to the times we were in and have been through. But think do say is the , the operating system of it is still to this day still use it, it's going into the next book. It is the operating system. You don't change the operating system, you change the inputs and the outputs, but you don't change this thing. So I, I , that's what I felt what was needed was that we needed an operating system for brands and for leaders. Secondly, I thought that business was getting way too complicated. We got a mission, we got a vision, we got a b h A , we got a North Star, we got a purpose, we got beliefs , we got values, we have all these things that were , um, getting, it was getting really, really complicated. And it's wonderful academically and philosophically to do those things when you're in the C-Suite. But the reality is, I spent a lot of time on the road speaking to frontline employees and the reality was they didn't give a. They just didn't because it was getting too complicated. And they were kind of going, can someone just tell me what to do? Like what I'm supposed to live up to? Cuz I don't know what I'm supposed to focus on The purpose or the North Star or the vision or the, I don't know, it was just NBA speak for them. And it got really, really complicated. And the reality was, as I said earlier, that we need those people to deliver on the purpose. And if they can't figure it out, they're certainly not gonna figure out the personal and specific and valued role that they play in bringing it to life. So it was like, how do we just simplify this in a way that anybody can take and apply to their organization? So when we call consult with clients and our clients include currently Google and Walmart and people like that, we use this, this is what we use. So think what do you think, what do you do to reinforce it? And then how do you talk about it? So , um, it , uh, was very well received and , um, I had a lot of fun writing it. I, I, it was finally the book that I really wanted to write that I felt was truly representative of my voice and , um, that I didn't feel with the first one. And that's nothing against the publisher or anything like that. I just, I , when you do the first book, you're kind of learning as you go. Cuz writing a blog post isn't the same as writing a book. And so by the time I got to the second was like, I know exactly what I wanna do. I know exactly how I wanna write it. So it was a much more efficient and I think , uh, improved process.

Speaker 2: 20:58

And by the way, I dunno if it's that fabulous microphone that you're using, but you do have a good voice, <laugh> just , just ,

Speaker 3: 21:03

I read the , I read the audio , uh, the audio book myself and had a lot of fun with that too.

Speaker 2: 21:12

Ron , I'm , I'm sad to say sir, that we're almost out of time today, <laugh> . I , I , well I can sit here with you for hours <laugh> , and listen and learn , um, but we don't have time for today. Our listeners have a certain attention span apparently. Exactly. According to our stats. So , uh, just to wrap up , uh, before I do say thank you very much , uh, how can our listeners learn more about you connect with you? So maybe that's LinkedIn, maybe you wanna share your email address? I'm sure you're super cool and all over platforms like Instagram and TikTok and of course how can they learn more about all the cool things happening over at Church and State?

Speaker 3: 21:44

Well, you can go to church state.com . That's one place. Secondly, you can go to rite.com and the best place, yeah, it's the great, when you're first and last name are seven letters, pretty much slash Rite on every platform. Uh , but certainly LinkedIn is where I share most business related , uh, content. If you don't wanna be , um, just see pictures of my kid , uh, my kids on places , uh, LinkedIn is probably the best place to go. I'm pretty active there.

Speaker 2: 22:13

I did a search for rom tight in Google earlier , man, you are owning the SEO for that. Please ,

Speaker 3: 22:19

I don't do any <laugh> .

Speaker 2: 22:22

If there are any other Rob tights out there, you got , you've gotta work on this. Okay . Geez . Uh , may , may maybe do a joint podcast with Ron or something. Get , get some name

Speaker 3: 22:30

Recognition. I dunno what that looks

Speaker 2: 22:32

Like . Anyway, hey Ron , that just leads me to say four today. Uh , I'm a huge fan of yours. This has been a big honor for me. Thank you so much for being my guest on this episode.

Speaker 3: 22:40

Thanks for having me , bill. I really appreciate the kind words and thanks for listening everybody

Speaker 2: 22:45

And listeners as always. Until next time, happy working.

Speaker 1: 22:51

Thanks for listening to the HR Chat show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette? And remember for what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hr gazette.com.