How HR Can Get More From AI-Generated Content with Graham Glass, CYPHER Learning

In this episode of the HRchat Podcast, we consider ways an LMS can improve the employee experience and impact your bottom line plus we talk about where generative AI fits in.

Bill Banham's guest is Graham Glass, Founder and CEO at CYPHER Learning, a company leading the disruption of learning platforms to unleash human potential with modern learning experiences.

Questions for Graham include:

• Last year, you published an article on LinkedIn called 'Top 8 learning barriers and how to avoid them as a course creator'. Can you share some of these barriers with us and suggest ways to overcome them? 
• How can HR and leaders get the most from AI-generated content and what are the risks? 
• Does the proliferation of generative AI mean oral exams will replace written exams?
• What are the benefits of bite-size learning rather than course-based learning? 
• Let's delve into some of CYPHER Learning features specifically designed for employees:
  • Flexible learning - How does CYPHER help to keep employees engaged with flexible learning programs they can access anytime, anywhere?
  • Onboarding programs - Can you offer some metrics around the success of your onboarding features? 50 countries 20 languages
  • Skills development - Your team provides training programs that help employees upskill and reskill. Why is this essential in an era of generative AI and other tech that's augmenting and replacing traditional duties and roles?
  • Compliance training -  With CYPHER, companies that wish to track employee compliance can select the courses required for compliance, then pick the period they are in compliance and establish if employees need to renew their compliance periodically. Tell us more. 

We do our best to ensure editorial objectivity. The views and id

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to the HR Chat show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders for hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hr gazette.com.

Speaker 2: 0:26

Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. I'm your host today, bill Bannon , and joining me on this episode is Graham Glass founder and c e o over at Cipher Learning, a company leading the disruption of learning platforms to unleash human potential with modern learning experiences. And in this particular episode, listeners, we're gonna consider ways that l m s can improve the employee experience, impact your bottom line. And Graham tells me he wants to talk a whole lot about the future of AI and HR Tech. Hey Graham, welcome to the show today.

Speaker 3: 1:00

Thank you, bill. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:03

So I'll be on my reintroduction there. Graham, why don't you start by taking a minute or two and telling our listeners a bit more about yourself, your , your background. We'll get into Cipher in just a moment, but let's learn more about you first.

Speaker 3: 1:14

Yeah, that would be my pleasure. So, as you might be able to tell from my voice, I'm actually a Brit, although I am currently living in sunny California, so I was very lucky. I went to a great school in the UK called Ha . Uh , gave me a really good , um, really good start in the education process. And I do remember thinking, wow, being a teacher at Habs is pretty good fun. Maybe I'll be a teacher one day, not thinking that I actually would become one. So I got my undergrad in computer science from University of Southampton, then I went to Dallas, Texas, and I started teaching at UT Dallas while I was doing my graduate program. And I had no teaching background, no formal skills in it , but I just found like I had a natural talent. And so I was teaching computer science there and I had a really great time. When I'd finished my graduate work, I ended up forming a training company. So I took everything I had learned about how to teach and project-based learning and competency-based learning, all of that good stuff. Took it into industry and grew a pretty nice training company teaching computer science all over United States. Fast forward quite a few years and I got really good at, you know, tech in general, but I decided back in 2009 I wanted to apply my experience as an educator and my , uh, and my experience as a technologist to create a modern learning platform, basically to show the world here is how you can really use tech to teach and learn effectively. So that's kind of like the genesis of of, of Cipher learning.

Speaker 1: 2:49

Thanks for tuning in to the HR Chat podcast. If you're enjoying this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you could subscribe and leave a five star review on your podcast platform of choice. And now back to the conversation.

Speaker 2: 3:06

Okay, thank you very much Graham . So Graham, I understand last year you published an article on LinkedIn , uh, it was called Top eight Learning Barriers and How to Avoid Them as a Course Creator. Can you maybe share some of those barriers with our listeners now and suggest some of the , uh, the ways to overcome them?

Speaker 3: 3:25

Yeah, I, I'd love to, and in fact, you know, when you, when you say eight, it sounds a little bit daunting, you can almost distill it down to one, which is you really need to make courses fun and engaging. And you know, part of the issue here is, is that people are used to what you might consider modern experiences, whether, whether they're gaming, whether they're consider they're consuming the news, whether they're catching up with their friends, they're having these fun and engaging experiences, but so often when they log into their learning platform, it's like boring, dull, clunky, and it's like, oh my goodness, how quickly can I finish up this course and get back to something that's fun again? And so, so a lot of it comes down to how do you allow people to learn things in a way that actually motivates them and doesn't just bore them to death. And so that's one of the main focuses we've had on the Cipher platform is providing te te uh , technologically powered features to allow that to be done much more quickly. So for example, I'll give you just a few ones. First of all, user interface has to be gorgeous because if you have a really great user interface that puts people in a good, good spirit and they're kind of expecting something good to happen. But secondly, things like bite-sized learning. So breaking up the courses into small, little easily digestible pieces so they can remember where they are, come back later on and continue. And if you've ever taken compliance courses, you'll know that most compliant courses aren't like that. Like they force you to sit at that screen for hours and we are not gonna let you go until you've finished it . So enjoyable bite-sized learning is important. I think another thing is gamification. So allowing people to get points and badges as they go. It sounds trite, but it actually really works. And we've got a huge deployment of our , of Cipher platform in the Middle East with 200,000 people in one game, which I think is probably the world's largest gamified setup . And the customers have told us we get at least 30 to 40% increased engagement simply because people get nice little rewards as they go through the course. So those are just a few examples, but I think it boils down to making the system really engaging. And we use Cipher for our own employee onboarding, our own employee training. And so even internally we have a lot of expectation from our employees that if you're gonna do a course, make it really good fun.

Speaker 2: 5:56

Wow, there's a lot there, there's a lot to unpack. And maybe let's do that as we continue the conversation, actually. Cause I , I , I'd like to, if it's okay , I'd like to delve with the , some of the site learning features , uh, with you now that , and get a bit more , uh, focused on those and then we'll put it back again. So yeah , particularly those features designed for employees. Um, tell us a bit more about the flexible learning component. How , how does Cipher help to keep employees engaged with that flexible learning , uh, system of programs that they can access anytime , anywhere? Like what's, what's the technology behind that that makes you guys unique and who's continuing to to monitor that content and the ways that , uh, your customers are consuming it?

Speaker 3: 6:40

Yeah , so , so I'll talk about flexible learning and I'm gonna use a specific use case related to onboarding just to kinda , uh, kick things off. And I will mention in passing that Forbes gave us the award of the top , uh, learning platform for em , employee Inboarding in 2 20 23 . So we must be doing something right. And they gave us the award for their best , uh, employee training , uh, platform, which is really great. So, so what happens at Cipher Learning is when somebody o Boards, we typically know what organization that they're in, what their job title is, and sometimes we have an idea about what skills they have and what they're interested in learning. And if you can take all of those things into account, then what you can do is you can give them a very focused onboarding experience, which is targeted for them. It doesn't include information that's not relevant to them. And as they're going, we are recording everything that they're learning, what skills they're obtaining so that later on we can use that as part of their digital learning profile and serve up additional meaningful content. So for example, when when somebody joins the sales organization , um, it's a completely automated process. They come on, you are in sales, you are being onboarded, the first course is x and that's all determined by automation. So it's really easy to set up rules that will enroll people into courses based on a variety of criteria. And typically it's a learning path in this, in onboarding case, like welcome Decipher Learning is the first first course that they take. That's why we tell them about Haber in 20 countries. We have 50 languages, we're a highly diverse organization. Once they've gone past the first thing, then it goes, okay, you are in sales, this is your organization, this is the next course you take. And at that point it introduces them to the sales organization. Then it might go, Hey, and you are also an SDR and you are located in the Middle East. So the final course you are gonna get is how to do, you know, effective sales strategies in the Middle East as as an sdr. So their first experience is like really targeted. It's all driven by automation. There's no admin behind the scenes that has to do all this stuff manually. But once they've completed the onboarding, because we know that they have this job title, they're in sales, maybe to begin with their d digital learning profile is fairly blank, then we will start making recommendations like maybe this course would help you , uh, in your S D R objectives. So we start serving up courses and resources and even social groups based on what we know about them, their job title and what they wanna get good at. So at a high level, it's all driven by automation. There's AI behind the scenes that are helping them through the journey and it's requires almost no admin assistance at all because it's all , uh, an automated process.

Speaker 4: 9:34

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Speaker 2: 10:10

Okay. Okay, thank you. Uh, so just continuing on the discussion of onboarding for a moment. Uh, you mentioned there , uh, you gave me some numbers , uh, for example , uh, in 50 countries, 20 languages I think you said. Uh, can you offer some more metrics around the success of your onboarding features?

Speaker 3: 10:28

Yeah, so I'm , you know, so I'll I'll say one thing that we really try to do in our platform is connect people together. So , um, you know, there's a , there's a lot of times where somebody's sitting behind a learning platform and they feel quite isolated like, am I part of a community or am I the only person awake in the system right now? So part of the onboarding process that we try to do is because we are in so many countries and so many languages, we want to bring people together and get to let them get to know each other. So there's one ask one particular one of my favorites, cuz obviously I've gone through the onboarding as well. You get to a certain point it says, tell us about yourselves and in two sentences tell us where you live and why you think it's a great place to live and upload a video or a picture if you can. And, but if you've been through the course, when somebody does that, you get an automatic alert that says , uh, Joni from Canada, for example , just joined the company. And then, and it shows you, you know, her picture and what she said. And so that way simply by taking the course, you start getting connected to other people who onboard later on. And so I know way more about what's going on in my company than I would've done without that particular feature as an example. But some more examples of where we try and use our platform to connect people together is if you, if you have a certain job title and you are trying to get a certain skill, we automatically bring people together with the same learning goals and they can then help each other out. They can answer questions. Um, they , uh, it's even gamified. So you can get ga ga points and badges by helping other people. Another area that we try to bring people together is by this cool thing called the, we call it the little green dot. It's actually an activity feature. So when you log in you can see a live widget that shows you everybody else is on the platform and if they allow you to do so, what they're doing, which courses they're currently in. And that's one of the, the the things that we learned from covid, which is people don't like to be isolated. People actually crave the human connection. So while we are investing in making it easier to create courses and take courses, we're also investing a fair bit in terms of how do you bring people together into learning communities. Cuz that's what they really enjoy.

Speaker 2: 12:51

Okay . I excited our audience at the beginning, Graham, by telling them that we are gonna delve into the wonders of ai. Let's delve into the wonders of AI a bit more now, shall we Graham ? Um, in terms of skill skills development, your team obviously provides training programs that help employees upskill and reskill , as you explained so far. Why is it essential , uh, in this era of generative AI and other technologies that augmenting and replacing traditional duties and roles? Why , why is Iten essential that folks have different skills and are able to , um, control and work with all of these exciting new technologies that many of them , Graham have only been at our disposal for a matter of months?

Speaker 3: 13:32

Yeah, that is a really great question, bill. I could talk for hours about this, but I'll give you my, my first thought. So on a personal level, I've been to a , into AI since I was a kid and I, and we'd always talk about AI and I'd read science fiction and stuff, and it's only recently with the advent of technologies like chat, G B T, that people realize , oh my gosh, this is actually becoming a reality much faster than people thought. And Cipher Learning has got reputation as a visionary leader in, in the learning space. And so we jumped on this really, really early on. So I'll tell you what we're doing about AI in general. So AI is an area that you can improve the way that you build courses, review courses , um, how you learn, how you find relevant materials, how you get recommendations. There's a huge number of things that can be powered by ai. And what we decided to focus on in the first version of our, what we call in co-pilot, which is just coming out in a month, so we are just very close actually less than a month, three weeks, is we focused on allowing people to create content really, really fast. I mean, almost real time and, and , and about almost anything. And the reason that this is really important for skills development is that we are a big believer that to, to serve up relevant content and to allow people to get really good subjects quickly, each person has to have their own digital learning profile. And what I mean by that is the system has to know your interests, your strengths and weaknesses down to a pretty fine grain level. It's not enough to just say, I wanna get good at marketing because I don't know, well what areas of marketing are you good at? What areas aren't you good at? Are you good at pay per click ? Are you good at better at good at seo? Are you good at digital demand generation? And fine grain tracking is what people typically call competency-based learning. And you master a competency, you get really good at pay-per-click for example. And we know that. And then we're not gonna keep on serving up content related to pay-per-click cuz you're already really good at it. So let's just say that you've got a digital learning profile and you wanna create a course on brand marketing and you want that course to be able to track both teach and assess things down to this competent competency based level. Now our Cipher learning platform has got this already, but it doesn't have the co-pilot which is about to be released. So you can manually create a course, manually create the competencies, manually align the competencies to assessments, manually align the videos to competencies. You can do that already. But in co-pilot, all of that becomes automated. And we are not claiming that co-pilot will generate a 100% perfect course, but it will be 90% of the way there and it will only require a little bit of , uh, polish by a, a professional educator. So I'll give you a little case example. I used to teach Unix and c programming back at the University of Texas of Dallas, and it took me a long time to create that course. And using copilot, I can go and say, create a course in Unix and c programming, and in 20 minutes or less, it'll create you the competencies, the module outline, the content, the written assessments, the rubrics, the quizzes, the question, banks questions connected to competencies, the whole thing in 20 minutes. And then you can go in and polish it. And why that's really important for skills development is we believe that to do really good skills development, you need competencies and align to competencies. And doing a good job of that takes time. But if we can reduce that time down to a few minutes, that's gonna unlock the whole next generation of skills development.

Speaker 2: 17:31

Okay. There's a bunch of things I wanna ask you and follow up to that. Um , one of which is , uh, towards the end of your answer though , you , you , you're saying how , you know, you can go in after all of these , uh, these , these, these new pieces of content have being developed by the generative AI and polish, it was was your term

Speaker 3: 17:48

Exactly publishing

Speaker 2: 17:50

How much do you need to polish it? That's the question. And this, I think this is the question on a lot of people's lips. So in my world, in the publishing world, the media world, okay , um, it's such a tremendous tool. Chat g PT for example , is such a tremendous tool than what it offers. But , uh, how I think we're all trying to struggle how much we need to change it up, put our own voice to it, add our own research to it , um, maybe it'll come back and excuse my language, bite us in the bum in six months time when they start figuring out clever enough plagiarism checkers or <laugh> similar to say, hang on, this wasn't written by a human being enough. These are the fears right now. So how, how much of one's voice, how much of one's expertise should be , uh, added to this, this auto-generated content?

Speaker 3: 18:33

That's another great question. And uh , I, I can answer that fairly authoritatively simply because I generated a course that I personally wrote from scratch when I was teaching at UT Dallas. And that course was quite high quality. I ended up writing a book for Prentice Hall based on my actual course. So based on what I'm seeing that's coming out of the AI power Co-pilot, I would say it gets you 90% of the way there. So it's about a 90 10 split, which is huge by the way. I mean , I mean, you are gonna pay a relatively small amount for that 90% and then you can make it yours. Um, so the co-pilot will even insert images, alternative images, videos, it does like a lot. But one thing I do wanna mention is that co-pilot version one coming out the end of June is for instructors, it's for content generation. It's not for students wanting to cheat and upload essays. So we, we decided version one was gonna focus on helping instructors and l and d to create really high quality content and do so much of the , the groundwork for them so that they can go in with their professional experience and say, well, I would teach this a little bit differently. I've got some additional anecdotes, I don't like that video, I'm gonna replace it with another video. You know, you don't, you don't have to start from scratching a course. But at the same time though , if I was gonna build a course, I'd bring all of my wisdom to it. I'm not expecting a co-pilot to inject that much , uh, wisdom. But co-pilot is not copying and pasting, it's using under the hood, it's using generative AI technologies that are themselves an amalgam of human wisdom accumulated over a huge number of years. So you're not gonna see like, oh, it's a copy and paste from National Geographic. It's a copy and paste from some other copy and paste doesn't really surface in , uh, in generative ai.

Speaker 2: 20:31

Okay . So you've been , uh, kindly sharing about , uh, co-pilot and how that's geared towards content creators, course creators. Um, just out of interest, given that , you know , you've got an academic background as well, Graham, where are we going in the next few years in terms of how students, students in the business world, of course, but you know, academic students Yeah . To at universities where , where are we going in terms of how they're taking their exams because they can now write an essay , uh, using generative AI in, in a matter of moments and try and pass that off as their own, right. So I'm, I'm hearing a lot about all exams.

Speaker 3: 21:04

Yeah, so I, I, I agree with that. Like be , because I had to deal with this already when I was teaching at UT Dallas and it wasn't using chat G B T, but people would write down answers on their arm , they'd sneak in a book under their desk. It's like, it's all, it all ends up being the same thing as like, how do you cheat? One of , you know, my, some of the professors I had were really good at disarming that whole process, but for example, let's just say that there's a really important final exam and part of that final exam is a written exam. Um , first of all, a lot of these things are gonna be proctored, but even if somebody cheats in the proctor and they're copying and paste from chat G B T, what you do is you have an oral component where you basically quiz the student in real time , the professor and the student, and you say, well, I'm , you know, I noticed in the first part of this essay you made some very interesting points, but how did you come up with that particular insight? If some guy , if some guy just copied it out of chat gp , they're gonna be , uh, well , uh, uh, uh, whereas if somebody wrote it themselves, they're gonna be at a , they'll be delighted to, you know, pontificate on how they came up with these things. So I think that there is still gonna be a written component, but anyone, it should also be buttressed by some oral life stuff so that they , they can't like wriggle out of it. But, but you know, on that subject, when people talk about the learner side of the things, the things like copilot in, in Q3 are gonna start focusing on learner facing , um, functionality. But the, the idea of we're just gonna help you to write an essay is not gonna be one of them. So it's gonna be things like, teach me about X, Y , Z using the Socratic method and it will be a realtime chat that you have with someone who a , acts like an incredibly bright patient tutor. And as you go through, it'll be, well have you thought about this from the tutor? Now let me ask you this question. Graham , did you understand this? This is like, this is where the AI stuff really comes into being because there's no way that a professor can have real time personalized tutoring with a thousand learners, but powered by ai. You can, or for example, let's just say you wanna learn about one specific thing right now. Like you're waiting in the pizza line and you go, I wanna learn about chat G B T. So you're not gonna take a one semester course on ai. You wanna have a small number of curated, carefully thought out, bite-sized learning things for the one thing that you wanna learn about right now. And that's the kinda stuff that we are gonna be delivering at scale. And it will certainly be powered by ai cuz that's the way that you can make this thing really work well. So I know that people, when they think about the the learner, they think about, oh, it's all about cheating, but we are gonna be releasing some amazing co-pilot functionality targeted towards the learner that's gonna be more like personalized tutoring, bite-sized learning on demand learning, which I think is the kind of stuff that businesses will really like inside that higher ed institutions that are trying to think about learning journeys that survive over 20, 30 years. That's the kind of stuff that they're really gonna benefit from.

Speaker 2: 24:12

I think I have some old university profs who might disagree with you. They , they like the site of a , of a struggling young student carrying eight or nine books out of the library. Yeah . And having, having to go through all of those, I've just on that note of bite size , uh, just to , um, yeah , just to revisit that for a moment , um, this stuff has been proven now, hasn't it, that that you've got certain , uh, I mean take YouTube for example, the , the average episode of a video on YouTube , it's what my minutes , something like that. Is it in terms of capturing somebody's attention, teaching them something , um, their length of content has gone got much shorter. It's , it's bite-sized cause people's attention spans perhaps are not as long as they used to be Graham. Um, have , have you got any , have you got any other sort of supporting comments or stats around the importance of, of the bite size approach as to, as opposed to say the old school more in depth , longer form , uh, type of learning?

Speaker 3: 25:04

Yes, I do. And by the way, I really like the way you use the word sporting. That isn't a word I haven't heard for a long time and it makes me actually kind of miss the UK right now. Um, along with Chocolate Digestives , uh, which for your listeners is a really favorite cookie in the , uh, biscuit in the uk. So

Speaker 2: 25:21

Anyway , fantastic. Biscuit <laugh> ,

Speaker 3: 25:23

I I have a definite, a definite view on bite-sized learning versus core space learning. I don't think it has to be either or , or , so I'm gonna use a personal , um, personal anecdote. Like I had to get up to speed on chat g bt very quickly. And so what I went, I went to Twitter and I subscribed to a whole bunch of people talking about ai. I go into YouTube, I listen tons of videos from various luminaries in the field and, and each one of those was fairly bite-sized. Some were more like five minutes. Some of the interviews I watched were like an hour, but they were compelling. So learners these days don't have a problem sitting down for an hour as long as the content is compelling. I mean, people will watch binge watch 24 hours of, you know, star Trek or something these days. It's all about being relevant and engaging. But the other thing though is that if you could sequence those so that they all, all the bite-sized pieces fell naturally under a bigger story arc , then you get the best of both worlds. So you can imagine something which says, I wanna learn about chat G B T and within a few seconds here's the playlist curated of at bite-sized videos. But here is the story that they're gonna , they're gonna tell. And when you ready for the Bitesize piece, number one, click a button. So it's not like random bite-sized stuff, just, you know, browsing through Twitter and Facebook and whatever else. It's like there's a five minute video on the introduction followed by a 10 minute video that does this. Then there's a five minute video, then there's a one hour interview, then there is a 10 minute . And so you can take these at your own pace, but they're not random. They're highly organized, highly sequenced. It will make sense as a viewer that you are learning chat g b t as a curated story arc. So that's what we think is the optimum. It's not a course which is designed for, you know , sitting down for hours and hours and end. It's not random by bite-sized stuff. It's carefully curated, sequenced , bite-sized pieces that are organized under the hood by an AI for

Speaker 2: 27:27

You. Okay, so, so far in this conversation you've mentioned that , uh, you're a huge sci-fi fan and then you just mentioned Star Trek. I've gotta share my anecdote with you. Many years ago I worked near London Bridge in , uh, in London UK listeners. And uh, uh, the station was called Berman . And uh , that's where Patrick Stewart, so Patrick Stewart lived in that area. Wow. I bang . Yeah . Cool . I banged into him twice the first time he was all like, oh yes , make it. So , yeah. And the second time I was just cool. I was like, hey, so Patrick <laugh>.

Speaker 3: 27:57

That's awesome, Mr . Next Generation. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Patrick Stewart

Speaker 2: 28:00

<laugh> . Anyway, anyway , uh, enough of them all geeking out. Uh, we're almost at the end of this particular conversation. Graham, before we do wrap up though , uh, how can our listeners connect with you and how can they learn more about all the cool things? And I mean that there's so many cool things happening over at Cipher Learning.

Speaker 3: 28:17

Yeah , so, you know, the, the , the main one is visit our website. So it's www.cipherlearning.com and that's spelled C Y P H E r cipher learning.com. And then you'll learn all about, you know, why we exist, what we value, what our platform can do for you. Uh , and we make it very easy for people to get in touch with our staff and, you know, try it out and, you know, kick , kick the tires. But that's really the best way to, to learn about it. I'll say as a little anecdote, by the way, I was also a huge fan of the movie, the Matrix and the Matrix movie has a lot of , um, educational angles cuz you would like plug into the matrix and you would learn how to fly a helicopter. And Cipher was kind of like the Judas guy, the one who wanted to go back into the Matrix. And I always like the word cipher because it also means unlock. And as you know, we are all about unleashing human potential and I love the Matrix. So that's where Cipher and Cipher learning , uh, comes from. So yeah, I would say check out Cipher learning.com and then you will learn a whole lot more , uh, about our system.

Speaker 2: 29:23

I love that. I love where the name comes from . That's awesome. Uh , I want , I won't see the module at university on, on the politics of science fiction and The Matrix is one of them. Um, and , and we got totally philosophical with all sorts, but that , that's a conversation for another time. Graham, all I've got time to do now is say thank you very much for being my guest on this episode of the HR Chat Show. Super . Thank you so much, bill. It was really great being on your show and listeners as always. Until next time, happy working.

Speaker 1: 29:54

Thanks for listening to the HR Chat show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hr gazette.com.