The Changing HR Landscape with Josh Bersin

In this episode of the HRchat pod, Bill Banham welcomes Josh Bersin to the show to share his thoughts on the impact he has made on the world of work,  the evolution of the employee experience and wellbeing initiatives, and where AI will take us in the coming years. In addition, Josh gives a rundown of his latest book, Irresistible: The Seven Secrets of the World's Most Enduring, Employee-Focused Organizations.

Questions for Josh include:

• You're one of the most successful, respected, and well-known voices in the world of work. You have probably received every accolade out there. What motivates you to continue to contribute to the HR space? 
• What would you hope your legacy will be in the world of work?
• How has the concept of employee experience shifted in the last 10 years? 
• You see wellbeing as a vital part of the employee experience. How has the emphasis on employee wellbeing evolved since the start of 2020?
• As we continue to see more white-collar roles being replaced and/or augmented, what are your predictions for the evolution of knowledge worker jobs/duties over the next few years? What roles will be replaced entirely and what new opportunities will be created? 
• How will Generative AI and large language models shake up the HR function in the coming years?
• Your latest book is called 'Irresistible: The Seven Secrets of the World's Most Enduring, Employee-Focused Organizations'. Tell our listeners about it and some of the hoped-for learning outcomes.

About Josh Bersin

Josh founded corporate learning, talent management and HR research and advisory company Bersin & Associates in 2001, selling it to Deloitte in 2012. On retiring from Deloitte in 2018 he went on to launch the Josh Bersin Academy for HR and learning and professionals. In 2020 he brought together a team of analysts and advisors to form The Josh Bersin Company, which undertakes research and advises companies in areas such as HR technology, employee experience and diversity equity and inclusion.

Josh is a prolific blogger with nearly 900,000 followers on LinkedIn and he frequently appears in top business publications.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

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Speaker 2: 0:02

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders for hundreds more episodes, and what's new in the world of work. Subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hr gazette.com.

Speaker 3: 0:25

Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. I'm your host today, bill Baam . In this very special episode, I welcome none other than Josh Berson to the show to share his thoughts on the impact that he has made to the world of work, his ideas around the evolution of the employee experience, and where AI will take us in the coming years. In addition, we'll take a look at Josh's latest book, which is called Irresistible, the Seven Secrets of the World's Most Enduring Employee Focused Organizations. Josh founded corporate learning, talent management, and HR research and advisory company Bersin and Associates back in 2001, selling it to Deloitte in 2012. On retiring from Deloitte in 2018, he went on to launch the Josh Bersin Academy for HR and learning professionals. In 2020, he brought together a team of analysts and advisors to form the Josh Person company, which undertakes research and advises companies in areas such as hr, tech, employee experience, and d e i . Josh is a prolific blogger with nearly 900,000 followers on LinkedIn, and he frequently appears in top business publications. I hope you enjoy this conversation that I had with Josh. Josh, it's an absolute honor a privilege. I'm such a fanboy. Uh, it's wonderful to have you on the show today. Welcome.

Speaker 4: 1:50

Thank you, bill. Thank you very much.

Speaker 3: 1:53

So, Josh, you are one of the most successful, respected, and well-known voices in the world of work. You , you've probably received every accolade out there by now. What motivates you to continue to contribute to the HR space?

Speaker 4: 2:07

Well, honestly , um, you know, I stumbled into this mid-career and found it to be the most gratifying thing I've ever done in my career. And what keeps me excited about it day after day, month after month, is the constantly changing environment issues, technology, culture, economy that affect work, that affect employees, that affect management, that affect hr, that it's, it's like this massive puzzle that's always interesting to un unlock and being sort of a scientist by nature. I just get a thrill out of it. And then, of course, the people in HR are the nicest, most generous, most hardworking people I've ever worked with in other parts of my career included. So I get constant, you know, gratification about the people I work with. And, and then the value, you know, that you can provide in this domain is so high. I mean, there's so many things that can be fixed and improved in every company. Um, it's not hard to find things that we can do better. So all of those things keep me doing this.

Speaker 3: 3:14

Okay. Thank you very much, Josh. So one day, I'm , I'm hoping it's many, many years in the future, but one day you've all decide to, to take a step back. Okay. And , uh, put your slippers on. I expect, at , at that point, Josh, what , what would you hope that your legacy will be in , in the context of the world of work?

Speaker 4: 3:33

Wow. Well, I don't think about that very much. Um, I suppose , um, I'm not really looking for fame here , um, but I suppose I would like to be remembered when, whenever I retire, as someone who brought a lot of new ideas and a lot of creative thinking to this domain and added a lot of value to a lot of companies, into a lot of individuals, I, I think as I get a little bit older, I get more turned on by helping each individual HR professional and leader in their own career , um, as well as helping companies. So , um, that, that would be fine. That would be enough,

Speaker 3: 4:13

Pretty good legacy. Indeed. Okay. So this is the first time I've managed to get you on the HR chat PO and , uh, I , I think listeners can tell how delighted I am today to have Josh on <laugh>. Um , so, so I thought to myself , what's the best way to approach this interview? Um, and I decided that I'm gonna throw a bunch of different questions related to a whole bunch, bunch of different things that you talk about. Okay. So , um, sure. Yeah . The , the , the , the first is I'd , I'd like to talk a little bit about employee experience with you. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , how has the concept, in your opinion, how has the concept of employee experience shifted in the last, say, 10 years?

Speaker 4: 4:46

Well, I mean, there's a long history of this. I mean, I , I think it goes back to the role that employees play in companies. You know, if you go back maybe a hundred years, employees were workers, they were labor, and they were considered to be replaceable parts. It actually goes back to slavery as a matter of fact. And so a lot of organizations structure and reward systems were designed around , um, the replaceability of people and the evaluation and comparison of people. And the only thing we did for employee experience was make sure they didn't get hurt and that they could put in the hours, lift the weights, and do the physical effort. And then, of course, when we moved into the information economy , um, you know, we needed to train people, we needed to align people, we needed to give people tools. And so, you know, the idea of employee engagement was born probably twenty five, thirty years ago by companies like Gallup. And companies used to do annual surveys, and that was employee experience was , um, you know, literally how did we do this year on the employee survey versus last year. And then during the last 10 years, when we got into technology, you know, disruption and digital jobs and digital enabled jobs , um, we started to look at , um, much more, you know, productivity related measures. Not how do people feel about their job and their, do they have a best friend at work? And do they get along with their manager, but can they do their work well? What's going well? What's going poorly? Um, are they interrupted by family issues at home? Do they feel healthy? And so now coming through the pandemic, we have this whole new set of issues in EX that have to do with simplicity, clarity, wellbeing, focus , um, mental health, physical health , um, endurance, overwork. I mean, these are things that, you know, actually have been around for hundreds of years, but nobody paid attention to them before because we didn't mind if somebody quit . But now we don't want people to quit because they're bringing massive amounts of intellectual property with them. And, you know, the longer somebody works for a company, the more valuable they become. So , um, not only do we wanna make them more productive on an ongoing basis, but we wanna make sure we move them around from place to place and that they can grow on the job. So when you look at the way EX Works today, it's much more complicated. And we have tools to diagnose employee issues in , in virtually real time , uh, to, to spot problems, to spot issues, and , um, and then respond to them with employee experience platforms and technologies that , um, that managers in HR and IT people can use to facilitate work, you know, directly in the line of whatever that job may be , whether it be frontline or a white collar job . So it's a big, big area. In fact, if you think what it's done to hr, it's turned HR inside out. Now, you know, there's many ways to think about hr, and we're doing a lot of work on the fu on the actual HR operating model, but a lot of companies have defined their HR mission as employee experience being their number one goal. And that's , um, you know, quite a far distance from where this started, where this was just one small issue among many others. So, and then it's gonna get even more complicated because we have AI and we have better analytics, and we have sentiment analysis and , um, what is called passive listening, where systems can literally look at your video online or look at the emails you're sending and look at your calendar and say, Hey, it looks like you're stressed out. Maybe you need to take a break. So it's, it's, it's a never ending journey, but it's, it's really changed a lot.

Speaker 2: 8:42

Thanks for tuning in to the HR Chat podcast. If you're enjoying this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you could subscribe and leave a five star review on your podcast platform of choice. And now back to the conversation.

Speaker 3: 9:00

Okay, thank you. Uh, just a follow up on, on some of the points you mentioned there. Um , obviously you see wellbeing as a vital part of the employee experience, and , um, I would hope that the leaders and the HR pros who listen to this podcast would agree with that . Um, how do you see the emphasis on employee wellbeing , uh, evolved ? How has that evolved since the start of 2020 , ie. What are the impacts of the pandemic and the post pandemic world on on that?

Speaker 4: 9:27

Well , um, you know , I think wellbeing was a little bit of a fad for a while . It was kind of like a , a cool benefit to get people to come join your company 'cause you have yoga classes and free food and, you know, unlimited vacation. Um, and people didn't see it as a human performance issue so much at the time. And then, you know, I give, I , I credit Ariana Huffington's book, her first book Thrive , um, with, you know, breaking the mold and saying, no, it's a lot more than this. Human performance drives business performance. So we have to think about every single, each employee as a human being, and what do , does he or she need to be productive, effective, engaged, and , um, and creative at work. So the pandemic took all of that, you know, kind of discussion and added literal risk of death or illness or, you know, severe infection and fear. And people went home and were worried about, you know, their lives and suddenly had to live in a world where they were isolated from their families or their friends, isolated from their teammates and working virtually. So a whole bunch of much more complex issues were, were created. Mental health being the big one. Um, people, you know , and it's still a big issue. I don't remember the latest numbers, but 81% of employees feel burned out last survey from late last year. Um, mental health is, you know, one of the biggest contributors to productivity loss in companies, particularly amongst younger people who don't have necessarily spouses at home or more mature family lives. And so , um, you know, we're now in a world where wellbeing is a c e O level issue. It isn't just a benefit in the HR department, and CEOs are telling their top leaders, you guys gotta pay attention to people and learn how to listen and take care of them, because there's clearly a lot of stress here. Now, not every CEO's the same. There's plenty of CEOs that are still creating stress, but I think that's the minority right now. And then we're gonna take all that, and we're gonna add to that a slowing economy, a stock market correction, inflation, and raising interest rates. And so now we have to add this, you know, newfound realization of the, the human side of work with the fact that, you know, maybe we need people to be more productive. Maybe we need to get more work done. And so what we found in our most recent research, we did a big study of this, we call it the healthy organization, is that the real issues in wellbeing now have to do with management, clarity of goals, fairness, equity, even pat pay, fairness, pay equity , um, keeping teams small, giving people training and empowerment so they can do their jobs well. So they know what to focus on. And they're not only feeling, you know, healthy physically, but they feel healthy , um, you know, work-wise that they know how to add value. Because one of the things I've felt for a long time, and there's a lot of research that's proved this , that one of the things that makes you feel good about work is getting things done and helping others. That is usually the most valued thing in a job, not, you know, the free food or the healthcare benefits. So , um, so we're moving back to kind of this, pushing this wellbeing thing into the threads of management and leadership. And I think that's a really healthy , um, evolution we've been through for the last decade

Speaker 3: 13:08

As we continue, Josh to see more white collar roles being replaced and or augmented. What are your predictions for the evolution of knowledge worker jobs and duties over the next few years? And maybe as part of that answer, you could also suggest what roles will be replaced entirely and what new opportunities mm-hmm . Will be created.

Speaker 4: 13:27

Well, there , you know, I mean, everybody thinks this new hr, you know, chat G p T stuff is gonna , you know , have this massive effect. This is just a continuous evolution that's been going on for a long time. I mean, I remember, you know, the first technology that I thought was disruptive at work was the voicemail machine. Believe it or not, that's how old I am. Um, and what happens with all of these tools is more and more routine work gets automated, and, you know, so typing things into a screen, entering data , um, even analyzing information in Excel, that's largely been automated in many, many jobs. So if you , if you made a living typing, you know, typing stuff into a screen, you're , you know, that job's gone. You're doing something else. And the jobs that have been created and continue to be created as technology gets smarter and smarter, and this includes chat , G P T, are jobs that create management, leadership, creativity , um, system thinking, empathy, personal care, healthcare . Uh, by the way, selling sales is a very complex human skill. I don't think we've made machines that know how to sell stuff and create relationships and handle objective objections , uh, <laugh> and interpret feedback from people who don't agree with us. Those are really human skills. So those kinds of jobs are always gonna be in demand. And, you know, if you're a writer or you're a marketing , um, manager and you've been writing copy, you're not gonna have to do as much of that. You , the machine's gonna write it, and then you're gonna edit it, but you're still gonna be, you know, needed. You're still gonna have to look at it and see if it's what you wanted , um, and then the machine will get smarter and then you'll evolve and you'll find other things to do. So I, I don't see, you know , I see all more and more and more routine jobs going away. Like, you know, it's like a call center agent. I, I, for example, my internet is down today, and I've been trying to reach our internet provider. I finally reached a call center agent after, you know, 15 minutes of playing around with a chat bot . And , um, he knew what I was trying to do immediately, so he didn't ask me to have to spend five minutes or 10 minutes asking me about all these problems we were having. So , um, a lot of those routine things are gonna be automated, but , but I don't think we're gonna run outta jobs. I mean, the unemployment rate is very low. Companies are going to add value in newer and newer ways on top of these technologies. And in hr, we're gonna become much more valued consultants and advisors, and we're not gonna have to do routine administrative work very often, and hopefully maybe never at some point.

Speaker 3: 16:19

Well, let's , uh, let's continue down that line for a moment then. Um, the, let's talk about the role of generative ai. If we , if you don't mind, and , and large language models in hr. Uh, as part of my homework, I was , uh, sifting through your most recent posts on LinkedIn. Jo , I could keep this as current as possible, and , and there's this fantastic, quite short, but very powerful quote that I found from you. Um, among those as follows, among the many amazing uses for open AI and other generative AI systems, perhaps the biggest is in human resources. Josh, how will generative AI and large language models shake up the HR function over the coming years?

Speaker 4: 16:59

Oh, it's gonna be fascinating. It's gonna be really important. Um, and the , the interpretation I have is that most of the things we do in hr, maybe 80 to 90% of them have to do with human issues, where there's no right or wrong answer. They're contextual decisions or programs or initiatives that , um, have to do with language, text, human relationships, psychology, et cetera . And so, you know, if you look at training, onboarding, recruiting, writing a job requisition, giving somebody a performance appraisal, giving somebody coaching, giving somebody feedback, et cetera , et cetera , et cetera, those are all interpretive jobs where you interpret information from a human conversation of some kind or some information you have, and you, and you feed it back to this person to either help them, recruit them, train them, develop them, et cetera. Turns out degenerative AI is pretty good at a lot of that. It's really good. It's summarizing a lot of textual information , um, interpreting it, and I don't mean in a human way, but in a mathematical way. And then , um, turning it into something else. So I have seen demos already, and we're only about a month or two into this of companies, vendors who've built recruiting tools that can rewrite job requisitions, create conversations with , um, candidates con help recruiters better spot good candidates , um, and better assess candidates using generative ai . And I think this is gonna be massive, and it's gonna compliment all the skills work that we've been trying to do for the last couple years to assess people's skills. By the way, what is a skill? A skill is not a skill is a word, it's just some word that describes something you know how to do. And it might be one word, or it might be a phrase, generative AI manages tokens or words. So it's a skills assessment system, basically. So there's a lot of applications for this in the training space. I've also seen vendors already where you can sort of look at a body of content, maybe in a course or an onboarding program, or a document or a compliance process, or, you know, some operating manual. And it can create a test and it can create a course and it create , can create an outline. You know, it takes instructional designers days and days and days to do that by hand. It can do it in minutes and it won't be perfect, but it'll save a huge amount of time. And then in the third area, I think is just in support and employee experience. You know, I , how do I take leave? How do I , um, file my 4 0 1 k and change the mix of benefits on and on and on? We've had to build websites, we've had to build call centers , um, you know, all sorts of fancy tools to try to solve these hundreds and hundreds of questions that employees have. Just ask the chat, g p t or, or, you know, binging whatever it is, ask the generative AI system the question, let it go out and find the answer for you. I was with Workday last week, and I challenged them. They weren't exactly ready to do this. I said, look, Workday's really hard to use. People are struggling with it to try to find the right button to push to do the different things they need to do. If you had a generative AI front end that knew where all the things were in Workday, maybe you could just talk to it and they know that's coming, so they're gonna work on that. So there's, there's just a , and I'm , I'm not covering everything. There's just a lot of things here that it's gonna help.

Speaker 3: 20:43

And if we had more time, I , I could do a whole episode just on this. Um , well ,

Speaker 4: 20:48

We'll keep at it, you know, bill, we'll keep doing, I mean, there's, there's lots of discoveries yet to be had in this area.

Speaker 3: 20:54

Absolutely. And , um, I , I'll pest you to come back onto the show soon and talk more about this. Sure. Uh , um, your , your latest book, Josh, is called Irresistible, the Seven Secrets of the World's Most Enduring Employee Focused Organizations . Maybe you can take a minute now and tell our listeners a bit about it and some of the hopeful learning outcomes.

Speaker 4: 21:12

Well, this is a book that took me about seven or eight years to write, and it was a , a series of discoveries I've had through many, you know, all the research studies and lots of companies I've worked with. And what I basically discovered, and you know, many of you know this in your heart, that the most enduring well run performing companies, and I mean over mult , I mean, over decades, not over a couple years, because over a couple years you can do sort of , you know, dysfunctional things and it doesn't hurt you , um, are really good at managing the people side of their business. And of the thousands of things to think about, there were seven that came out as the most impactful of all. And that's what the book's about is these seven fundamental principles that are, you know, somewhat enduring and somewhat new on how you organize and manage and drive and direct people in your company to drive continuous growth, continuous improvement, continuous profit, continuous improvements in productivity. And , you know, one of the things that comes out of the book is not only lots and lots of examples and lots and lots of , um, you know, sort of models on how to do these seven things, but the fact that great companies learn their people's strengths during tough times. And many of the stories in the book are about, you know, comp pretty big companies, most of them that have been through tough times, and they've learned these lessons through tough times. So I think it's a book that will help managers and leaders, and I've heard this from a lot of people just understand what they need to think about , um, in their teams and their organizations to continuously grow even during bad times. I didn't write the book as a big kind of comeback from the pandemic or anything like that. I mean, I wrote the, started writing the book long before the pandemic. So, but I think it reflects on a lot of the things that have been happening during the digital disruption, the industry transformations that are going on right now, the labor shortage , um, all of those current topics are, you know, well covered by the, by the disciplines in the books . So , um, and there's, and it's also, you know, for me it was just a way to take all this research I've been doing and put it into a digestible form where people could get access to it , um, in a very, very clear set of seven , um,

Speaker 3: 23:44

Issues to address Next one . Well , that just leads me to say for today, thank you very much for being my guest on this episode of the HR Chat Show and listeners, as always, until next time, I be working.

Speaker 2: 23:59

Thanks for listening to the HR Chat show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette? And remember for what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hr gazette.com.