In this episode of the HRchat show, we discuss reasons why we should rethink employee appraisals.
Our returning guest is Lucinda Carney, Founder and CEO of Actus Performance Management Software which was launched in 2009 and has 10,000s of users across the globe.
Lucinda is a Chartered Psychologist with 20 years of corporate HR experience. She is considered a thought leader in various people management and change-related business topics. She is also an accomplished Speaker, Consultant, and Coach. She was named ‘Everywoman Tech Entrepreneur of the Year in 2016’ and ‘Winner of one of the UK’s top 10 Women in Business 2020’ by Business Gamechanger magazine.
Lucinda also hosts the popular HR Uprising podcast.
Questions for Lucinda include:
We do our best to ensure editorial objectivity. The views and ideas shared by our guests and sponsors are entirely independent of The HR Gazette, HRchat Podcast and Iceni Media Inc.
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In this episode of the HRchat show, we discuss reasons why we should rethink employee appraisals.
Our returning guest is Lucinda Carney, Founder and CEO of Actus Performance Management Software which was launched in 2009 and has 10,000s of users across the globe.
Lucinda is a Chartered Psychologist with 20 years of corporate HR experience. She is considered a thought leader in various people management and change-related business topics. She is also an accomplished Speaker, Consultant, and Coach. She was named ‘Everywoman Tech Entrepreneur of the Year in 2016’ and ‘Winner of one of the UK’s top 10 Women in Business 2020’ by Business Gamechanger magazine.
Lucinda also hosts the popular HR Uprising podcast.
Questions for Lucinda include:
We do our best to ensure editorial objectivity. The views and ideas shared by our guests and sponsors are entirely independent of The HR Gazette, HRchat Podcast and Iceni Media Inc.
Feature Your Brand on the HRchat Podcast
The HRchat show has had 100,000s of downloads and is frequently listed as one of the most popular global podcasts for HR pros, Talent execs and leaders. It is ranked in the top ten in the world based on traffic, social media followers, domain authority & freshness. The podcast is also ranked as the Best Canadian HR Podcast by FeedSpot and one of the top 10% most popular shows by Listen Score.
Want to share the story of how your business is helping to shape the world of work? We offer sponsored episodes, audio adverts, email campaigns, and a host of other options. Check out packages here.
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Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. I'm your host today, bill Badham, and in this episode we're going to discuss reasons why we should rethink employee appraisals. My awesome returning guest today is Lucinda Carney, founder and CEO over at Actors Performance Management Software, which was launched back in 2009 and has tens of thousands of users all over the world. Lucinda is a chartered psychologist with 20 years of corporate HR experience and she's considered a thought leader in various people management and change-related business topics. She's also an accomplished speaker, consultant and coach and was named every woman tech entrepreneur of the year in 2016 and winner of one of the UK's top 10 women in business 2020 by business game changer magazine. In addition, lucinda hosts the super popular, awesome, wonderful HR uprising podcast. Hey, lucinda, welcome back to the show today.
Speaker 3:Hi Bill. Thank you so much for inviting me back.
Speaker 2:So, beyond my reintroduction there, lucinda, why don't you start by taking a minute or two and reintroducing yourself to our listeners and telling them about the mission of Actors?
Speaker 3:Thank you, Bill. I think you've been fairly comprehensive in your introduction about myself. My name is Lucinda. I'm the founder and CEO of Actors, but I also deliver consultancy and, as Bill mentioned, I host the HR uprising podcast. I deliver lots of webinars and training, so we really do try to share our thought leadership as widely as possible. So we'll put links in later into if any of you want to listen in or join in further with the sort of things that we do. The mission for Actors is we're all about building a better workplace for people, so we offer a complete people performance, talent and learning software platform and one of our differentiators is that we really do work with clients to make sure that they choose the outcome they want. So it's not just software. We offer consultancy and training to help people get the most out of it.
Speaker 2:I think you've done that before. Good work, good work. Okay. So listen, as many years ago, I moved out to Toronto and I worked for a performance management platform. Okay, I worked in the marketing department, so I'm quite aware of some of the arguments against the annual appraisals, as well as many, for here's a big question for you to start with. A big loaded question is in there why are appraisals so unpopular?
Speaker 3:Unpopular. Now you're absolutely right. I would say there are two main reasons. One of them is you know, it's basically how they're carried out. The main issue it's not the appraisal itself, it's the way in which the appraisal is done. So it's something which people feel like it's a tick box exercise. Their managers are going through the motions, those sort of things which no one really enjoys that. The second thing is that people actually are inherently a little bit anxious about feedback, and if they're not used to having feedback which is a problem in many organisations they build it up. They say it actually invokes I think neuroscience says it invokes your vital flight to response. If I was to say I would you like some feedback? So I think those are two areas where they're carried out badly and actually people can be nervous about feedback in certain circumstances and that's perhaps why they're unpopular.
Speaker 2:So are they still relevant? There are lots of other options and we'll talk about some of the other options later, but in terms of that annual performance review, is that still a relevant platform? Is that still a relevant way to get the insights that you need from your employees?
Speaker 3:I think yes and no. So there have been people who a lot of it is almost smoke mirrors. It's marketing when they say that they don't exist. People ditch the appraisal.
Speaker 3:If you think back in 2012, there was quite a lot of publicity about big global players ditching the appraisal, going to ongoing conversations. However, we should be having ongoing conversations or one-to-ones on a regular basis anyway and the appraisal should really just be a culmination of it. The concept of having a once annual appraisal, I would say, is outdated because work life moves too quickly to do anything once a year and I think that's one of the areas and the idea also of having every bit of conversation in one annual conversation about have you achieved your objectives, are you living the company values, what's your development you need, what's your career aspirations, maybe throwing in a performance rating? That shouldn't all happen in one conversation. They don't even all sit together, naturally, and it is going to be something where you lose the will to live potentially To my view is that annual approach doesn't really work. I would argue that it never has really worked. What we should be doing is talking to people much more regularly and having regular feedback and conversations throughout the year.
Speaker 2:What is the alternative to the annual appraisal, then? What about the constant feedback? The post checks? Tell us a bit more about how regular or that cadence should be in terms of conversations between a manager and an employee.
Speaker 3:We have an approach that works with a lot of customers, but I wouldn't say one size does fit all. We should be having continuous conversations or feedback. As a manager I say we, as a manager and individual that work with your employees we should be talking weekly, monthly about things. One approach, however, is not always that easy, as I said before. Actually, in terms of this whole idea of oh, did you appraisal? And go to constant conversations, how do you really even quantify constant conversations? Hr departments who might dictate? We're just not going to do anything formal anymore. The reality is managers are busy and the risk is that nothing will happen. No conversations will happen. You do need a cadence. Work cadence, I think, is helpful.
Speaker 3:One approach that we've done in our sort of rethinking appraisals series of education and we've done this with a number of our clients is help them define their own annual cycle I alluded to previously. It doesn't really fit having everything in one conversation once a year. Why don't we just break out those things and have them in three or four conversations throughout the year? Obviously, you need to set objectives at start of the year. People are to be productive. We need to know what's expected of us. When you talk about pulse surveys and things like that. Well, number one in employee engagement surveys is I know what's expected of me and that's what objectives are all about. I'm an advocate of objectives that are the length that they need to be, as opposed to annual. So is it a three month objective, is it a one month or is it an annual objective? So they should be revisited when appropriate. But then, if you visualize their clock face, we work with a number of clients. If they work on a sort of annual cycle, at the end of the first quarter that's a really good point to just check in and say how are you doing against your objectives and actually do you need any development? So if you think about it in the annual appraisal, we wait until the end of the year before talking about development, which kind of misses the point when development should be helping us to be successful. So I'd say you should have a little bit of conversation about development at the end of quarter one. If you then get to the end of quarter two six o'clock in my clock analogy then you're halfway through the year. If you are going to do something like performance ratings, which some businesses still do need to do performance ratings they need to allocate reward or remuneration or career progression on an annual basis, then it's really important that people give a maximum opportunity to be successful. So at that point you should definitely be talking to people about are they on track or not and helping them to get on track.
Speaker 3:The other thing that can fit quite well at the half-year point is if you are a business that's trying to measure how people do things, not just what they do, you might want to talk about how that person is performing against their values or competencies and you can have a quality conversation about it, whereas if you wedge that into the end of the year again, it becomes too much content and I would say people lose the will to live if it's too long. So I'd say that half-year point check in are people on track? And if you want to discuss behaviors, then that's a good place to do it. You could introduce something like 360 feedback to help that person make sure they are modeling the right style. And then the final section I can tell you the end of quarter three would be talking about career development. So you get in towards the end of the year.
Speaker 3:You know who your high performers are.
Speaker 3:You want to keep them excited.
Speaker 3:You don't want them to be looking to leave, so thinking about where they want to go with their career, having that kind of conversation, the talent type conversations, so what you're effectively doing.
Speaker 3:Obviously then you would have an end of the year appraisal to wrap up the end of the performance and setting next year's objectives. You've got a cycle there, but with four distinct touch points, which breaks down something that could be a three hour it can to four meaningful 40 minute conversations. You're it's frequent enough, but not too frequent, to keep people engaged and it gives the difference in focus, which I really like, where, if you're talking about performance versus those softer conversations about development or career aspirations, it's quite good to separate those out. So that's the way in which we say rethink it, and it doesn't have to be four touch points. So we work with quite a few universities in the UK and they tend to have three terms. I know the place to maybe have semesters, but depending on what the cadence is that's relevant to your organization, think about something that's logical and align the appraisal with it, which is what I would suggest.
Speaker 2:This term appraisal. Do you think that could be damaging? Do you think there are other words, other terms of focus maybe could use? Maybe it depends on the industry or the job type or whatever it is. But you know, I can imagine maybe when you're evaluating a sales role which has clear targets, clear KPIs, maybe appraisals are appropriate. But maybe professional development roadmap might be most useful for other industries, other roles. Have you come across this question before? What would be your response?
Speaker 3:I think it's right, isn't it? So you're being appraised, it feels like it's being done to you. It's the downside. I don't love reviews either, because that's a bit too backward looking I've got. We've worked with various customers and we've come up with different terminology for the cultural aspect that they're trying to generate. One example would be achievement conversation. I quite like that that businesses have, so it absolutely doesn't have to be called appraisal. Sometimes a rebrand and a refresh is a good way forward.
Speaker 2:How have those millennials and Gen Z's changed things up? So previously, the performance review on the annual basis and whatnot was the accepted approach. Over the last 20 years, with millennials coming into the workplace and becoming a majority now management level etc. And all these Gen Z's coming in, how have their values changed, the way that they want to be appraised, be assessed, have those conversations, the cadence we're talking about earlier on? What's changed as a result of those two generations coming into the workforce, if anything at all?
Speaker 3:I think I have to go from opinion. I haven't got definitive evidence on this. In fact, actually, some of the evidence that's suggested is that there isn't really generational differences. Some people actually challenge those altogether. However, anecdotally, what I would say is different. This might be just as maturing as organisations.
Speaker 3:It's not necessarily generational pieces that people do seek more feedback, more quality feedback and recognition. So that's actually that it would be logical if we think about people are used to having information at our fingertips. Everything's a little bit more immediate, so it makes no sense to wait a year for something. So whether or not it's a generational thing, I'm not necessarily convinced. However, I think feedback is really really critical Self-feedback, self-development. So it's a keen to grow, I would say if they have higher expectations about the support and development opportunities and their career aspirations. The evidence in terms of behavioural science is that one of the most compelling ways to increase performance we want to increase performance is about people having clear goals and objectives and getting regular, specific feedback against it. So for me, that's the really key aspect is feedback on performance. Do people know where they are at all times? Are they getting opportunities to develop? And it is more about frequency and quality is what we need to be focusing on.
Speaker 2:You mentioned 360 reviews earlier. I am a little bit, personally, I'm a little bit unsure about 360 reviews. What if you've got colleagues who you just don't get on with and they've got a beef with you? Are 360 reviews open to biases? Are they open to folks who are not managers? They don't have certain sensibilities or training because they're not managers, they're not mentors, but instead they're at your same career level and maybe you just don't get on them. Maybe they could say mean things. I don't know. I'm just putting it out there. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3:Well, managers aren't necessarily unbiased either, are they? I would agree 360 feet, but I don't really like it being done from an appraisal point of view. I wouldn't ever want someone's career being done for it. I believe it should be positioned as a developmental tool and again, the evidence is that people are more honest if they see something to be provided on a development basis. Now your point is what if they've got beef with you? Yeah, that happens.
Speaker 3:And one of the most important things for me about 360 feedback is that it should be debriefed as part of a coaching session. It shouldn't just be delivered to somebody. There should be a way in which it's managed so that people can digest what they're being told, they can interpret it, they can take it. Human beings have a tendency to almost focus in on negatives, so you don't want people to be damaged by something. But generally I mean I've delivered huge numbers of 360 feedback. Generally, people find it incredibly valuable, but you need to make sure certain things are done in terms of the design. The questions need to be clear. Only asking one question. You need to give people the opportunity for free text comments so that they can explain more about what they mean.
Speaker 3:And when you're debriefing the appraisal, I would always talk to the person and say you know, what are you expecting? Who did you invite? Have you got a good relationship? Do they know you really well? So all of that is really just context for people. So 360 is a really powerful tool. It's a great way actually of improving the maturity of an organization. Many organizations are not necessarily ready for it. They don't know how to give 360 feedback to start with, but there are things that you can do if you're rolling it out in an organization. So I would suggest start at the top, for example, so the leaders give good quality feedback. They've experienced it themselves. So it's a whole other conversation and I've done a podcast on that topic. So if people want to know more about 360, look up the HR app pricing podcast. I've done lots on it, but I actually think it's one of the most powerful tools. But you are absolutely right, it has to be handled with care.
Speaker 4:Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the HR Chat Show. Iea Training provides professional development to a changing workforce with changing needs, and we're proud to support this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. Iea offers lots of courses, webinars and on-demand training to meet our students where they are and help them reach their goals. We're proud of our contribution to better risk analysis and high operating standards in the industry. One more at IEATrainingorg and now back to the conversation.
Speaker 2:And there will be a link to the HR Uprising Podcast, of course, in the show notes list so you can check that out. It's very, very good, so please do listen to that. Okay, we can't do an episode of the HR Chat Show these days, lucinda, without talking about AI. But what you're seeing in the space? How has artificial intelligence shaken up the ways that reviews are conducted?
Speaker 3:It's interesting, whether it's shaken it up or not. I think I'll explain where Attactus where we see it's got the most potential and the value in where we're exploring using it. One of the things people struggle with is writing good quality objectives. So actually AI, you could go out and say give me five marketing objectives. Now obviously you've got to make them relevant, but it's such a quick way, rather than scratching your head with a blank sheet of paper, to get some really good quality objectives in place, as long as you customize them. So we're looking at AI-generated libraries and things like that to make it quick and easy for people to set those. And it's the same also with development.
Speaker 3:Increasingly, people want intelligent development options. So if I'm trying to prepare for my appraisal, for example, maybe my AI component might direct somebody at some of the learning content that we offer, so that will help them prepare for a good quality appraisal. So you can just stop people having to search stuff out. Saves people time, hopefully improves the quality of how things are done, and one of the areas that I've wondered about is whether we could actually also the other area that I think is quite exciting is getting individuals to potentially be self-managing, so you could have AI nudges as to have you updated its objective or where are you with this? That's almost the sort of to-do bit, so it becomes more of a day-to-day conversation your performance management and yet content is caught in the appraisal, which is literally nudging you along. So maybe displacing the requirement of the manager, although most of us like to have some human contact. But those are three areas where we attack to see the potential for AI to advance things.
Speaker 2:OK, there we go. That's the AI box ticked for this particular episode. We are coming towards the end already, lucinda. Before we do wrap up, two more questions for you. The next one just an opportunity to kind of drive home some of the things you've mentioned today. So in two minutes or less, I'm going to challenge you. What are some of the key business benefits of rethinking appraisals? Go?
Speaker 3:Well, ultimately, we want our people to be productive, motivated and engaged, and that's what this is all about. It's about human connection and helping people to be their best selves. I think there's areas that you could go in at which is really about. With so many people working remotely, it's probably more important than ever for us to make sure that they're not burning out, but they're also being productive. So performance management in that sense is one of the most important the most important it possibly can be at the moment In terms of moving forward. I think we need to be autonomous. People need to be self-managing, and managing performance in that way is something that's really key to them. That's probably just a minute. I'm not sure whether that's answering your question, but I believe it's one of the most important things at the moment in terms of helping get the best out of people. From a business benefit point of view, you can support with retaining key talent and making sure that it's as effective as possible which is a big thing.
Speaker 2:This year, 2024, is all about making sure that those retained folks are happy, otherwise they're going to leave you in 2025, when the market's changed again. Okay, just finally for today, lucinda. How can folks connect with you? So maybe that's LinkedIn email address, maybe all over TikTok and places like that? How can they learn more about Actors? Of course, how can they tune in to your awesome podcast?
Speaker 3:It's really quite straightforward. I would definitely go for LinkedIn. I haven't made it to TikTok yet, it has to be said. So LinkedIn, lucinda, karni, l-u-c-i-n-d-a, karni, c-a-r-n-e-y no relation to Mark Karni. That's what I'd like to, but that's how people tend to get a hold of me. Or, if you want to go and look at what we offer, go to actorscouk, so that tells you more about the software, the 360 loads and loads of sort leadership and free resources that are available. Then, in terms of the podcast, the podcast just search on wherever you get your podcast from. It's called HR Uprising, the HR Uprising. We've done 250-odd episodes, so there's a decent back catalog and hopefully you'd find something that is of interest and value to yourself.
Speaker 2:Excellent. Thank you, and listen. Just as a reminder, I mentioned in the introduction here, this is Lucinda's second time on the pod, so I'd urge you to check out the interview that we did a couple of years ago, I think now something like that. It is a while ago. It's a while ago, so it's nice to get you back on. So check out that one as well, listeners, and I hope you've enjoyed this one too. Lucinda has kindly invited me onto her pod. In fact, we're going to turn this one off for just a second and then we're going to do the reverse and I'm going to be Lucinda's guest. So look out for that one too. But for now, lucinda, that just leaves me to say thank you very much for being my guest.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, Bill.
Speaker 2:And listeners as always. Until next time, happy working.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.