HRchat Podcast
Listen to the HRchat podcast by HR Gazette to get insights and tips from HR leaders, influencers and tech experts. Topics include HR Tech, AI, Leadership, Talent, Recruitment, Employee Engagement, Recognition, Wellness, DEI, and Company Culture.
Hosted by Bill Banham and other HR enthusiasts, the HRchat show publishes interviews with influencers, leaders, analysts, and those in the HR trenches 2-4 times each week. Shows are typically 15 to 30 minutes.
Past guests are from organizations including ADP, SAP, Ceridian, IBM, UPS, Deloitte Consulting LLP, Simon Sinek Inc, NASA, SHRM, Government of Canada, Hacking HR, Ultimate Software, McLean & Company, Microsoft, Shopify, DisruptHR, Talent Board, Virgin Pulse, Salesforce, Make-A-Wish Foundation, and Coca-Cola Beverages Company.
Podcast Music Credit"Funky One"Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
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HRchat Podcast
Bridging the Gap Between Technology, Education, and Workplace Culture with Al Kingsley
In this HRchat episode we look at the evolving dynamics of workplace culture, the importance of empowering employees, and why more autonomy and trust from leaders can lead to higher levels of employee performance.
Our guest this time is Al Kingsley, a well-known EdTech expert and business leader. Al has a big social following, has written 3 books around Ed Tech and Governance, leads the NetSupport Group, and is a MAT Chair. He will also be a speaker at the Milton Keynes AI Summit in October.
Questions for Al include:
- What are the main characteristics/qualities of an effective leader?
- Let's discuss your passion for raising awareness of alternative provision options. You are connected with Alex Hughes, Chair of Inspire 2 Ignite. How did you meet and what is it about Inspire 2 Ignite you like?
- NetSupport's solutions have secured over 300 industry awards and include IT Asset Management, Remote Control, Classroom Management & Orchestration, Notification, eSafety, Service desk and assessment software. Tell us more.
- You're Chair of the Business Board at the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough Combined Authority, a supporter of the Peterborough AI Summit. Tell us about the Combined Authority.
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Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. Hello, this is Bill Bannam, your host today and joining me on today's episode is Al Kingsley. Al is a well-known person in edtech who's always innovating, sharing and learning. Al has a big social media following, has written three books around edtech and governance and has led net support for over 30 years. Oh, and he's also a mat chair. Hey, al, welcome to the show today. Hello, hello, lovely to be here, bill. So, beyond my reintroduction there, Al, why don't you take a minute or two? Because you've got so many hats, you do so many things. I'm sure I've missed loads of stuff there. So why don't you take a minute or two? Because you've got so many hats, you do so many things. I'm sure I've missed loads of stuff there. Uh, so why don't you take a minute or two and introduce yourself to our listeners?
Speaker 3:well, I won't go through the full list unless there's some insomniacs on the call, but, um, I generally try and explain myself as being passionate. In two halves, two hats. Um, so one heart, as you said, 30 years in the technology space, ceo technology company, very much focused around the tools to get the most out of your technology, keep people safe. Alongside that, I also chair the british education suppliers association, which is a group of tech companies within that subset. I'm also chair of the peterborough and cambridgeshire combined authority business board and sit on a number of regional boards linking Oxford and Cambridge, in particular from an economic point of view. My other side of my hat is I'm really passionate about education. So, best part of 20 years in governance and working with schools, chair, as you say, a multi-academy trust previously alternative provisions, specialist provisions and I sit on the board for the department for education for the east of england supporting academies in the transformation in our area. There's lots of other bits I'm passionate about, but those are the most important bits properly built and what is your secret?
Speaker 3:superpower al I learned very quickly to um recognize that, with two eyes, two ears and one mouth, I should use them in appropriate proportions that's a great answer.
Speaker 2:My answer it tends to be oh, I can play the didgeridoo. That's a much better answer. I like that. Okay, very good. Uh, we're going to talk more about the uh, the alternative provision piece later on, because we have a. We have a marvelous mutual connection, but before we get there, let's uh, let's talk about some of the things you get up to then. Um, let's start with net support. Net support solutions have secured over 300 industry awards and include it asset management, remote control, classroom management and various other things.
Speaker 3:Tell us more well, I mean, it's a bit of a journey. Let's go back to the days of dos. For those of you who are old enough listening to remember dos in the, the very early days with a modem, one of the most important things we could do with technology is save time. So if your computer was having a problem, you either sent somebody up the motorway in a car to fix the problem or you developed technology, as we did. Remote control technology that meant you could connect over a digital connection and see the screen and keyboard and actually interact and fix a computer roll. That on a few years. And the idea of being able to see the screen and keyboard and actually interact and fix a computer Roll that on a few years, and the idea of being able to see the screen of a computer 100 miles away also transformed into. You could see 30 screens 10 feet away.
Speaker 3:And that was the advent of classroom management, basically keeping children safe in the way they use technology in the classroom.
Speaker 3:Since then we've evolved all sorts of functionality to help teachers keep children on task, test and quiz them.
Speaker 3:Most importantly in this new digital age, keeping them safe online, monitoring what they're doing online, making sure that they're not placed at risk and when they are, we prevent them going to inappropriate sites and content. And then the bigger picture is you know, schools and businesses spend a fortune on technology and particularly now we have hybrid working and our staff in all different places, we very much focus on the technology that keeps staff productive by making sure their technology is up to date, it's working effectively, securely, safely and beyond, so all the tools you need to get the most out of tech. We currently operate in 110 countries around the world, have just over 22 million users of our technology. Head office is just north of sunny Peterborough, but we have some international offices as well. So it's been a real journey, growing from a very small business into something much more substantial. But we still very much advocate the community ethos of what we do as a business and we very much co-produce with the different sectors we work with.
Speaker 2:So, listeners, before we hit record, today, al and I were comparing notes in terms of travels and whatnot. We both have accountants just outside of Toronto. Did you know, al, there's a Peterborough just outside of Toronto, or they pronounce it Peterborough.
Speaker 3:I did know that In fact they've stolen quite a few UK names because there's a London and a few others in that neck of the woods. I mean, I'm sure they would probably dispute my interpretation there, but I have to say it's a lovely neck of the woods. We have a base just outside of Toronto and one in Atlanta or just north of Atlanta. So I've spent many, many weeks and months, in fact lived in the US for a few years when we established our business over there. So I'm very fond of being the other side of the pond as well as being here in.
Speaker 2:Europe. There we go. They've also got a Scarborough, and about an hour drive from toronto you can get to renorwich, which I appreciate as a canary al you're also the chair of the business board at the cambridge here and peter combined authority, who are one of the big supporters of the peterborough ai summit the first peterborough ai summit that we're doing me and jan carlo uh, putting it on in partnership with you guys and with aru peterborough that's happening on june 6th. We've done a couple in norwich now. The last one we had nearly 200 attendees. It was wonderful. It was at the uh university of the arts in norwich and now we're taking it on the road that. There's also one in cambridge, 18th Milton Keynes in October, and we're looking to take you to London and some other places. Can you give a bit of love to the combined authority now? Tell us a bit about them absolutely well.
Speaker 3:Obviously, in terms of our region, we have a mayoral combined authority that covers the whole of Cambridge here in Peterborough, and as part of the function of the combined authority that covers the whole of cambridge here in peterborough, and as part of the function of the combined authority there is is an same in all different regions around the country there's what used to be called a lep, local enterprise partnership, which is, in effect, the business board, and that business board function is very much about making sure that there is business voice at all stages of the operations that happen within our authorities around the country, and the primary purpose of the business board is to make, hopefully wise and insightful decisions based on the collective experiences on the business board when it comes to investing in growing our economy, developing our region. So a great example is the CPCA business board was responsible for investing significant funds into being able to establish and build ARU Peterborough, and Peterborough has been in need of a great university for a long time and it's a really innovative and fresh university. But we're also responsible for investing in all sorts of technology startups in Cambridge, apprenticeship facilities and training facilities in Wisbe Beach, developing rural market town centres to make sure we keep that community cohesion and lots more. And the key is, the business board has lots of experienced people who represent the different sectors that we want to really prioritise and focus on in our region. And, yeah, we're moving at pace and there's lots of exciting projects in fact although probably once you listen to this, it'll already happen but we'll all be visiting, as the combined authority, one of the biggest investment events UK Reef in a week's time, and that's really signposting why the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough area is a great region to invest.
Speaker 3:And some listening might say, well, that's good for you, but I don't have a technology startup. But the truth is the the thing that primes the pump for economic growth in our region is about skills and opportunity, and if you want to create jobs, you need to have people with skills and you need to make sure they've got nice places to live and they've got good road connectivity and transport and buses and everything that goes with it. So it's actually quite an interconnected web and for me, being very passionate, having lived in in Cambridge and in Huntingdon and in Peterborough I feel like I've got the full set across the region. I think it's really. I'm really passionate about making sure we make choices that are about lasting change in our region.
Speaker 4:Once in a while, an event series is born that shakes things up, it makes you think differently and it leaves you inspired. That event is Disrupt HR. The format is 14 speakers, 5 minutes each and slides rotate every 15 seconds.
Speaker 2:If you're an HR professional, a CEO, a technologist or a community leader and you've got something to say about talent, culture or technology. Disrupt is the place. It's coming soon to a city near you. Learn more at disrupthrco. All sounds amazing, but as a Norwich City fan, I would say you might want to invest in your local football clubs.
Speaker 3:A little bit more, but that's a conversation for another time. You'll find that there is a trophy in peterborough this year. It may not be one of the most significant trophies, but nonetheless okay, there we go.
Speaker 2:I've been corrected. Uh, I apologize. So, uh, let's. Let's change tack a little bit now, because I do like to make sure that we offer tangible takeaways for our listeners. Can you maybe share some tips for building, leading and managing high performing teams?
Speaker 3:Because this is something you've done throughout your career. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a progression here. I mean it alludes to my very first comment I shared with you about you know listening and looking before you speak. You know listening and looking before you speak and I think my experience of leading and shaping teams has changed significantly as I've got a bit greyer and hopefully a little bit wiser, Very much linked to the fact that I think when you're young and you've got ideas and you want to be quick to the table to tell everybody what you think and what you want to do, and over time you realise you don't actually have to prove yourself and it's far better to listen.
Speaker 3:So you know, know some of my strategies, which are absolutely not rocket science. Firstly is make sure you recruit people that are better than you at each of the different disciplines you want to do. You know I think of myself as being a very much a jack-of-all-trades, but, but employ really good people. The second one, which I think comes with confidence in yourself and your team, is don't employ amazing people and then tell them what to do. Employ amazing people and then ask them what to do. Actually empower people.
Speaker 3:And where I straddle between education and the corporate world, I see the same two challenges, which is, people in organizations really value two things more than anything else One, to feel trusted and two, to feel they have a degree of autonomy about what they do.
Speaker 3:And I think those two things alone, alongside all the bits like being fairly rewarded and so on, but the fundamentals are about empower people to get on and do what you've employed them to do. Give them the opportunity to shine and, where possible and it's difficult when you're a growing business but give people opportunities for professional development, and sometimes it's more personal development than professional development, but it's about opportunities for growth. I think the other thing which is probably more about business and the financial implications of having a team is being really clear on where you want to go, so you're employing people for the long-term, for that growth within your business and your own direction. Within our organisation at NetSport, we have about 120 staff in the UK office and our average tenure is just over 13 years, which either means I'm able to find collectively as a team we have a great place that people want to stay, or we've got a lot of bad people who just won't leave. I like to think of it being the former average of 13 years.
Speaker 2:That's really impressive. Congratulations, that's great to hear I'm really proud of that.
Speaker 3:I'll share that for that reason, because I think it's actually, and perhaps with your experience in the state side you'll see it more. I think, naturally, that you know a generation or two ago we used to start a career with the view that that would be our, our job, would be our career for for the lifetime. And actually increasingly now people don't stick in the same career and the same job. They change many, many times on their journey and in fact, in many ways I encourage people to not be scared of changing career, re-skilling, looking at fresh opportunities. So for me, I'm very proud that people have an opportunity to personally develop without leaving the fold, so to speak you mentioned the word of autonomy earlier on.
Speaker 2:Um, do you feel that I'm just putting us out there because this is something we talk about on this show? Uh, do you feel that? And and also sorry, I'm a millennial. Just, I was born in the early 80s. That does make me a millennial. Do you think the millennials and, uh, gen zed is, I would say gen zedders, even though the audience for this show is mainly us-based and said they would like gen z's? Uh, do you think that they demand more autonomy than previous generations? And, as part of your answer, do you think generally we all now want more autonomy because of our experiences in the pandemic and how we proved to our bosses that we can do the job. We don't need them looking over our shoulder I think there's probably a split somewhere.
Speaker 3:I think there's an expectation sometimes of autonomy before you've in some cases, when we think of younger recruits and I mean I'm a big fan of apprentices and people where you grow your own. That's one of our philosophies. So there's obviously a little bit of a balance there between being given autonomy once you've acquired the skills and the confidence to actually run with the job, and maybe sometimes there's as I probably suffered when in the early part of my career overconfidence in my ability. That wasn't necessarily backed up with experience and foundation. I think, contra, there's a natural persuasion, particularly when a business is under pressure and the pandemic was a great example of that to tighten the control and give less autonomy. But actually that is where it often will cost you, because people won't perform to their best if they don't feel they're trusted. So I think there's an expectation now more of give me the independence to go away and do things.
Speaker 3:You know I work in the digital space and one thing I see which is quite different to many spaces and very different to education, for example, my other kind of hat technology is moving at this crazy pace. We often talk about moore's law, how things get you know twice as quick and half the size every year, and it's an exponential. But if you work in the technology space, the concept of if you've, if you're in your 50s, you've got more experience and you can deliver better than somebody in the 20s doesn't necessarily fly anymore, because experience is relative to the tools and the environment you're using. It's changing so fast that actually a 20 year old can have just as much relevant experience on the technology. Let's take ai topic that obviously you're very passionate about. You know and you can. Actually you've only need to have been around the last 18 months to have had a very broad exposure to AI and probably far more.
Speaker 3:So I think we also, as business leaders, need to change our mindset that somehow length of tenure guarantees your level of autonomy, respect and trust, and we need to recognize that we aren't always the experts in the room when it comes to an ever-changing landscape of technology. That takes strong leadership. You know, in schools it's the same. School leaders are looking at ways to embrace AI, whether it's to reduce teacher workload or whether it's to enhance teaching and learning, but the people with the most experience are not the senior leaders making those decisions. It's the classroom teachers, the young classroom teachers who've been playing with it the last 18 months, two years, and they've got lived experience. So I think we're having to change the dial a little bit in terms of how we measure the levels of trust and how much we can empower our workers.
Speaker 2:OK, so a follow up to my follow up then. So with the organizations that you run NetSupport, for example, um has the leadership's approach changed in the last few years? We talk a lot on this show about skills based hiring and how skills and an aptitude or attitude are more important these days than the qualifications that you've got or indeed the experience that you have. To your point, a lot of things being augmented right now. As long as you can get to grips with that and you've got the skills, you've got the attitude. A lot of employers would say that's more important. Where do you stand on this?
Speaker 3:bill. I have to say it's a bit quietly if I'm wearing my education hat, because if any of my schools are listening, obviously I have to say don't forget those qualifications. They are, of course, however, wearing my employer hat. Soft skills are now power skills, the most important traits we look at as employers. I believe I want people who are creative, critical thinkers, good communicators, are able to challenge, that can innovate. Those cognitive skills, their own personal resilience, their desire for inquiry, their appetite, and so, in that regard, absolutely the character and the skills of the individual weigh far more heavily for me than often the paper qualifications. In the same way, when we recruit young people as apprentices into our business, you know, and in every case bar one, our apprentices have gone on to be, you know, long-term roles, roles, managers within our organization and grow.
Speaker 3:When I interview an apprentice, the thing I look at is not how much do they know, but how hungry are they, how keen are they to prove themselves and how keen are they to learn, and if I think they have the skills to assimilate and then utilize what they've learned. That to me is far more important. I think the new working landscape, if we certainly think about let's move forward. With the rapid adoption of AI and how it can do some of the things that humans aren't so great at, you can either say, oh, that's a threat, or you can say you know what what that does is. It amplifies those human skills as being even more important, because the other bits can be done from a digital perspective. So I want people with amazing communication skills.
Speaker 3:I'm not necessarily worried about whether they are, you know, fantastic at their mathematics, because there's plenty of tools that will correct and check them, you know, in the same way as how good does your grammar need to be? Well, it needs to be good, but there's plenty of spell checkers out there. I'm more interested in other things now, depending on the role. If they're a copywriter for our team, then probably the grammar is important, and if they're a programmer, then probably attention to detail and mathematics is going to be more key. But in a general sense, I absolutely embrace the fact that I think employers now are looking, and should be looking, at the person as a whole, and actually that's what's changing around the world. Around the world, we've measured education systems performance and we've stacked them in a league table using the PISA rankings, and now the OECD is saying we want to measure education based on human flourishing, and human flourishing is built around those skills, people's aptitudes, the whole person there, and for me that's absolutely the driver now you are a very well connected person.
Speaker 2:I like to think that I'm a good connector and I love networking and such, but I think you are much better connected than me. One connection that we both have in common is a lovely chap called alex hughes, and we're chatting about alex before we hit record today. Uh, alex is the chair over at inspire to ignite. He works closely with a wonderful leadership team, including sam squire, who's spoken a bunch of our events. Um, I'm proud to be a volunteer, a champion, with inspire to ignite, and I'm looking to find new ways to work more closely with that team at the moment. Um, let's just do a little bit of shout out for alex, shall we what? Why? You've met alex a few times. You mentioned to me earlier. You saw him just last week. I had beers with him the week before. What is it about alex that you love? What do you like about the mission of inspired to ignite and why is alternative provision important to you?
Speaker 3:so I mean, the first thing is I, I like I. I like alex because he's just a nice chap and he's passionate about what he's trying to do and and that comes out of every pore when you're chatting with him and I think you know genuine people with a real committed voice is something that you can but pay attention to. We met a couple of years ago and the reason why Inspire to Ignite resonates with me is from my educational journey supporting mainstream schools. One of my roles was asked to step in and support alternative provision in our city and the alternative provision was very much a place for young people that struggle with mainstream education. Now, sometimes the perception is young people who are in alternative provision are the badly behaved kids, when in reality it's often the young people that have had a challenging and troubling life so far and haven't developed the skills to how to share those emotions and cope with those different things. But if we connect the dots and we say we've got these amazing young people that maybe academically aren't the strongest, maybe they're on a journey when it comes to their own personal development, but, most importantly of all, our system is such that many doors are closed because they don't get the paper certificates and the pass rates and the academic qualifications that we might be naturally drawn to. But at the same time, if we take the view of actually thinking about apprenticeships, if we take the view about thinking about what we're actually looking for in the workplace now, we're looking for people with skills, people with personality, people with passion and hunger, and in many cases, the young people that are in alternative provision offer just as much potential to the workplace as any other child that's scored academically highly within the school system.
Speaker 3:But our system doesn't always provide them with a fair opportunity. The playing field isn't level and throughout my career working in education, it's all been about it shouldn't matter where you're born. It shouldn't matter what family you're born into. You should always have a fair and equal opportunity in life and where I see Inspire to Ignite is saying look, these young people from the traditional education system, have someone somewhat been put in a siding and actually there's an opportunity here to really give them a chance to flourish.
Speaker 3:There's somebody that's really advocating for them, saying actually they've got something really credible to add, support and working with businesses to try and provide that pathway for experience so they can showcase what they're about, as well as giving them an opportunity as young people for the first time sometimes to actually achieve, acquire skills, qualifications, something that says you know what you really are good at this, this is something that you can excel at, and I think in our increasingly digital world and rapidly changing world, there are so many things that we can be amazing at that. We shouldn't say, just because you don't fit in that narrow window or because choices in life have taken you down a different path, you shouldn't have just the same opportunities. So for an organization that's championing people that just want a chance to prove themselves, want a chance to move on, how can you not get behind, behind that bill?
Speaker 2:don't argue with url, I got behind it a while ago. Um so much much love to to sam and to alex on the team. Uh, if folks want to see alex in action, he is co-hosting the peterborough uh ai summit on june 6th at aru peterborough and he'll be involved with the AI Summit in Cambridge a couple of weeks later and then I'm sure he'll be hanging about with us in Milton Keynes when we're doing an AI Summit down there.
Speaker 2:So, why not come along to one or all of those, please listeners Al before we wrap up for today? How can our listeners connect with you?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm a bit of a social animal, so you can find me on LinkedIn, al Kingsley. I'm a bit of a social animal, so you can find me on LinkedIn, al Kingsley. You can find me on X, al Kingsley, underscore edu. You can even find me because I'm really trendy on Instagram as Al Kingsley as well, if you really want to, or head over to alkingsleycom, and if you're interested in the technology we do, please do head over to netsportsoftwarecom. Check us out.
Speaker 2:Perfect. Well, Al this has been an honour. I've appreciated your time today.
Speaker 3:Thank you, my pleasure we need to get together in person soon, I hope let's shoot for Milton Keynes and do some AI together done.
Speaker 2:Okay, do you hear that? Listeners? We've got him on record. Boom, okay, until then, al, thank you very much for being my guest today. My pleasure, thanks and listeners. As always, until next time, happy working.
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