Courageous Leadership: Embracing Strength, Vulnerability, and Boundaries for a Thriving Workplace with Kim Crowder

In today's HRchat episode, we talk about the importance of boundaries plus we look at developing courageous, responsible, and intentional leadership.

Bill's guest today is Kim Crowder, Founder and CEO at Kim Crowder Consulting and writer with SHRM.

In a world where the line between strength and vulnerability often blurs, Kim redefines the concept of courage; showing us that it's not just about the grand gestures but also about the quiet, steadfast decisions that shape a thriving workplace culture. Through the conversation, Bill and Kim embark on a journey that leads the listener through the nuances of setting measurable goals, fostering accountability, and how these practices pave the way for a more inclusive and respectful professional environment.


We do our best to ensure editorial objectivity. The views and ideas shared by our guests and sponsors are entirely independent of The HR Gazette, HRchat Podcast and Iceni Media Inc.

Chapters

• 0:03 Developing Courageous Leadership Strategies
• 11:14 The Importance of Boundaries in Leadership
• 14:42 Courageous Leadership for Inclusive Workplaces

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit HRGazettecom.

Speaker 2: 0:26

Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. I'm your host today, bill Bannum. In this episode, we're going to talk about the importance of boundaries. Plus, we're going to look at developing courageous, responsible and intentional leadership. My awesome, fantastic guest today is Kim Crowder, founder and CEO over at Kim Crowder Consulting and writer with Shurm. Hey, kim, welcome to the show today.

Speaker 3: 0:52

Hi, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2: 0:54

Beyond my reintroduction there, Kim, why don't you take a minute or two and tell our listeners all about yourself?

Speaker 3: 0:59

Yeah, I'm Kim Crowder, ceo and founder of Kim Crowder Consulting, where we focus on leaders who want to be courageous in the workplace and who want to understand how to build an environment of courageous leadership, and so just a little bit about me beyond that piece is that my background is a singer and a performer. I've done acting and so I like to speak. That's where I'm going with that, so I do a lot of speaking engagements around this topic, and also we work directly with leadership teams and embedding this into their workplace, and it is the thing that lights me up this idea about courage.

Speaker 3: 1:44

What is courage? Do we really understand courage? What is courage? What we thought it was right? Can courage be quiet? Can courage be big and powerful? I think that's the only way we typically think about courage, and so defining that for leadership teams and then connecting values and actions with that. What does behavior look like? What is acceptable, and then being really clear about the impact of that, depending on where people sit in the organization, depending on their own identities and backgrounds, and so sometimes it's a reframing of what courage is as a leader and then digging into okay, great, how do we get there as a leadership team and as individuals?

Speaker 2: 2:25

Love it, love it. And what's a typical company that you would work with in terms of industry, number of employees. Give us a bit of an idea of that.

Speaker 3: 2:35

You know what We've worked with organizations Gosh, we've worked with major Fortune 500 organizations and we've also worked with Midside. So I'd say Mid to Large is where we end up, and we typically really like to start with that executive leadership team and make sure that we have a high level assessment of understanding what the rest of the organization is experiencing, right, and so that we are centering the conversation about courage around need what is needed in the workplace, what are the skill sets connected to the ways that courage needs to show up in leadership. That benefits both those leaders and those team members and the business overall. And so that, industry-wise, it's been a gambit which we're excited about and are really focused on understanding people because, at the end of the day, right, business is business and that is an important piece of it.

Speaker 3: 3:31

And who runs businesses? People. And so looking to work with those organizations where leaders are ready to have this conversation in ways maybe they haven't had before, I mean that there is an environment of flexibility and an environment that can hold change right, an environment that change doesn't feel daunting but is welcomed, in the understanding that, in order to be relevant in the future, that things always have to shift and change right. We don't want to be left behind, and so that is that. That is our ideal partner. Those partners that say, not only are we going to learn this, we're going to take it and move it forward, and they get lit up about what that looks like, what that could look like, what that does look like. That is where we get really excited.

Speaker 2: 4:18

Okay, okay, thank you very much. So, ahead of our conversation today, I was doing my homework and I was all over, for example, your LinkedIn profile, looking at your posts and seeing what you get up to, and I noticed that in a recent Robert Walters Diversity and Equity report, you offered a list of recommendations for leadership teams who want to develop courageous, responsible and intentional leadership. Can you maybe share your four key strategies for leaders committed to growth and impactful change with our listeners now?

Speaker 3: 4:50

Yeah, when we think about this idea of what it means for an organization to really grow in the ways of courageous leadership, we have to talk about measuring. What are we measuring? What matters, right? Anything that we know, that anything that is valued is measured, is reviewed, and so measuring is a big piece of that. What are we looking at to say this is successful? And then that second is collecting data with transparency.

Speaker 3: 5:22

Oftentimes and this is different depending on where you are in the world, right, if you have clients in the EU, the type of data that can be received is different versus in the US, versus versus in Canada, for instance, and so whatever that is is being willing to collect that data with transparency. The only way that we can measure is by collecting that data and making sure that your team members are clear that when they opt into that data, here's how it's going to be used. So a lot of this is about communicating clearly and communicating in a way that anyone in the organization can understand, right, so that that language is so high-brow that once we get into the warehouse, people don't understand it clearly and feel empowered to say yes or no, whatever works for them, or yes, and some of this. I'm fine with some of this, I'm not. So that is what collecting data with transparency looks like and also making it an organization-wide commitment. Sometimes when we make we have initiatives that start at that C-suite, there's a bottleneck right about that SVP, maybe mid-level manager place, where how these initiatives move forward, how these commitments move forward within the organization and those commitments work really well, you know, right above that line, right, because oftentimes it's framed at that executive level from an executive level positioning. But what we know is that in order to move that all the way through the organization, and so one of those things when we talk about workplace culture, where we want team members to stick around, where we want retention and we don't want so much turnover because that's costing the organization in a lot of ways, you know we can go through bill all of the ways time, money and also institutional knowledge, and so leaders that are able to make that connection and communicate all the way through the organization.

Speaker 3: 7:21

One of the things I think about as being an actress and a singer, an actor and a singer on stage is they usually say sing to the back of the room, right, Act to the back of the room, and what that means is that, no matter where someone is sitting in that theater, that they should receive the same quality level of a show is everyone else. That connection should be made, and so that's a bit of that focus for when we talk about making this an organizational-wide commitment. How does that happen, and are there ways that maybe we need to give up some power and control in some ways and let certain levels figure out how that works best for them? Also, making those changes systemic. One of the things that is deeply powerful when we talk about measuring is that then you can get really curious about, maybe, why things aren't moving or why workplace environments aren't as healthy, aren't as open, aren't as safe psychologically, and also why those workplaces aren't holding those team members in ways where team members want to stick there right, or team members thriving, and so that's why we wanna make these systemic.

Speaker 3: 8:35

It needs to be embedded in the way that the organization operates so that there's no questioning about a choice in making sure that promotion rates are equitable, right.

Speaker 3: 8:48

This needs to be something that is clear, that yes, this is how we do it and here's how we operate, so that this happens on a regular basis, so that we can test it and measure it over and over, and then the tell everyone piece is that's when we move it out into audiences that are stakeholders that could be within the organization or your board members, and also to your customers, your clients, those folks who care about this.

Speaker 3: 9:16

Because what we're finding out in data is that, more and more, especially if you serve millennials, if you serve Gen Z or Gen Alpha's, that more than ever, the expectation of having workplaces where people are treated well is deeply important. And so when we talk about tell everyone, it's the ability to not only be able to create language around that, but also to be able to prove it. What does that look like in real life, in your workplace? Can you tell that story and can it be communicated in a way that deeply connects with those audiences? And, by natural nature of having those courageous environments, your team members. You're bringing on team members who can connect with those audiences, who feel safe being innovative and sharing their ideas and thoughts, and now you capitalize in a way where you're connecting authentically with an audience in ways you may not be able to if you didn't have the space for team members to be courageous in those work environments.

Speaker 2: 10:17

Love it, love it. Thank you very much. Let's let's talk about boundaries now. Okay, this is. This is a topic that you you address quite a bit, and I've got a quote from you. It goes as following, as follows sorry, choosing to honor our boundaries creates space to honor others without comparing what we deem boundary worthy. This is not about one person. This is about the culture of leadership at organizations in a society overall. So my question on the back of that, kim, is why should leaders be okay with defining boundaries, and what can this space give to Improving our work and our personal lives?

Speaker 3: 10:59

Yeah, I love this question If this is a multi-faceted, and here's why, when we uphold our boundaries, some well, depending on your workplace environment, sometimes you feel like I can't uphold my boundary, whether that's real or imagined. Or, you know, some people have experiences where boundaries weren't Celebrated, that they were crossed all the time, right, whether that be in their personal lives, but also in work environments. We can all think of those work environments where you said, hey, this is really important to me that I leave at this time, and Then continuously you're being asked to push and push and push that. And what happens when that when that is the workplace culture Is it starts to wear you down, where you feel like you can't say no to certain things. Right, bill, I imagine you've had conversations. Have you ever got a conversation with someone where you go am I crazy? Like you know, you ask that question am I crazy? And then the person goes, no, and here's my experience. And as soon as they tell you their experience, you go oh, wow, somebody else in the world is experiencing this.

Speaker 3: 12:01

We look for those points of connection all the time in some ways to validate or at least give us an idea of okay, great, if that existed with somebody else? What did they do in order to Remedy this? Or are growing this area? And this is the same thing when we think about boundaries, when we have courageous Leaders who decide, you know what, when I go home, I don't work. Or I, if I send, if I create an email, I only send it at these times, like I may hold that email or I may Schedule it to be sent in a certain time, because I want to uphold the boundaries of my team workers, of my team members. In the Same way is that I have decided, when I go home, that I deserve to be with my family and to be a full person. So do my team members. And so you don't begrudge those boundaries when you have your own, when you continuously push your boundaries, then you cannot respect the boundaries of other people because, you see, becomes a comparison game. Where I do it, why don't you? But when we honor that we have boundaries and that we have our values in place, then we don't begrudge the values of other people and the boundaries of other folks. And so that is what I mean by Upholding a culture of leadership that is courageous enough to have boundaries, and boundaries are a really beautiful thing because it allows us to be gracious to each other when we say, hey, you know what, I know, that's really important. I have this event that I need to attend. I really need to make a connection right now with my family. I'm not feeling well. I'm gonna take days off. Oh, you know what? It's time for me to actually have vacation time and not work right?

Speaker 3: 13:42

All of these things are ways that boundaries can creep in or or can be upheld, that create stronger morale within workplaces, that create an environment of trust and Authenticity, but also in environment. Again, what we talk about having that desire to stay in an environment. Who doesn't want to stay in an environment that Actually allows you to live in your values? That's deeply important, and so that is what I mean by why. What you know? That the impact of not only having boundaries but upholding our boundaries and then Allowing other people to do the same and now I want to talk a little bit about shirm.

Speaker 2: 14:26

We did because you're you're involved with sherman in various ways and, by the way, listeners, recent ish episodes featuring shirm Folks includes one with donnie see Taylor and another one with Jim link, so please do check those out now. Then you presented a session at shirm 23 called why employees of color that even what to do about it, and in it you shared that courageous leaders and organizations that understand People expect to be treated well at work will and will demand it are the ones that will be relevant in the future Makes sense to me. Can you tell our listeners a bit more about your session?

Speaker 3: 15:05

Yeah, you know the focus of that session was just that To to create a. You know you only have so long right into a session, so you really is talking about creating a foundational principle around the fact that this next wave of workplaces that are going to be most powerful are committed to making sure that their team members are seen as valuable, and then they understand your team members are the best thing you have. Isn't that, I mean, isn't that revolutionary when you think about it, if you say our team members are the best part of who we are? And so, if that is true, then what is the behavior, what are the actions that we need to put in place in order to honor that? And how do we take that and measure it so that we are accountable to that belief over and over and over Again, it's just like sales. If we think about, hey, we want to make sure we sell X, and here's what we have decided our business goals around that. It really has to be the same thing, and the reason it's called courageous leadership is because this needs to connect across the organization so that it's not sort of hinged on HR only. And what I believe deeply is that, no matter where we are as leaders within the organization that we can create these microcosms of impact. So you may be a director at the director level and you're focused on your team. You may be, you know, have a region that you're focused on. You may have a business line unit, whatever our business unit, right? Whatever that is. Whatever your microcosm of influence is, you can create a baseline environment where your team members feel fully seen, no matter what their backgrounds are, and not only where they feel that, where they experience that on a regular basis, and you can define what that is going to look like.

Speaker 3: 17:01

One of the things that is most powerful we have been working with this organization gosh, maybe over almost two years is one of my favorite, my personal favorite partners that we work with, and the reason why we love working with them is because everything that they learn, they take it and they look for ways to expand it into every area of the work that they do, and so when we work together, for instance, if we do some sort of learning experience with them, they are thinking about, okay, how can we expand this, but not only how can we expand it within our department, how do we take that out and share that throughout the organization, if we know that our influence is this right. Everybody is looking to us as a pillar in this area, so, as we connect with other departments, we make sure that we share the information that we've learned, and this is not some small scope. They have shared this out with over a hundred departments, and so what I like to say is that we are you know, our macrocosm of influence is like we're rocketing, dropped in a pond, and those ripples spread out as far as we allow them, right. And so what are we going to do with our ripples? What does that look like? How do we expand what we consider courageous throughout those ripples? And can we touch other departments? Well, the example I'm giving you, the answer is yes, and not only are they touching those other departments, they're able to mitigate risk because of that. Are there things we, you know they have shared with us? There are things we would have missed had we not worked directly with you and your team, and we've been able to mitigate that because now we have the skill set and the knowledge to do so.

Speaker 3: 18:52

And so, when we talk about this idea of courageous leadership, that understand that people need to be treated well at work and they'll demand that this is what it looks like is going okay.

Speaker 3: 19:03

We know that people are best thing and so, based on that, what are our parameters and our values as a team?

Speaker 3: 19:10

And then how do we share that out over and over and over, and how do we also receive feedback from our team members on a regular basis to make sure we are on track?

Speaker 3: 19:20

And so what I believe is that this is, and could be, one of the most exciting times, because, for the first time, we're working as a partnership within workplaces, right when team members are saying we wanna be treated better because we want to be invested into the organization, and so the ways that people were loyal as team members, maybe in the boomer stage, right when people just wanted that one job to stick around, we know that's not the case, and so if we see this as an opportunity to expand and to grow in the ways that we focus on leadership courageously, then we can take on this challenge as we do any other challenge and really hone in and become part of what Kim Crowder Consulting calls the courageous crowd.

Speaker 3: 20:07

We are building this community of leaders and leadership teams who have decided that this is their way forward that, in order to really be a place that attracts the best talent, a place that keeps that talent, a place where team members are their greatest evangelists then they know they must, and also where they are taking this and it connects with their external audiences, their customers right, we know that workplaces really have to be willing to make a change and edit the ways that they lead and grow on a regular basis.

Speaker 2: 20:42

So are you right for sure? Do you know Eddie Burke? I love Eddie Burke. Do you know Eddie over there?

Speaker 3: 20:47

I don't know, eddie, no, oh he's great.

Speaker 2: 20:50

He's a great guy. Originally from the UK, supports the opposition soccer team, unfortunately, but despite that he's a nice guy. Heads up communications over at Sherm. He's a big belief. I was on the PR team before, so you're right for Sherm In 60 seconds or less. As we're wrapping up today's interview in 60 seconds or less, can you point to any articles that you're particularly proud of? Tell us more.

Speaker 3: 21:15

I'm working on one that I can't talk about that I'm going to be really excited to share. There is a really great article that we did, that I did out in back in October that I still believe is extremely relevant. It's called Generation Z In the viewpoint section. Generation Z workers have high standards for leaders amid affirmative action reversal. That is very it's very much so US focused when we talk about affirmative action, and no matter where you are in the world, this is going to be deeply important because we talk about the meat of what Gen Z workers want from their workplaces and what they're willing to do in order to make sure that their workplaces are aligned with their values, no matter if there is a law that's connected to it or any government bill that's connected to it. They have their own internal values that they are looking for their leaders and workplaces to connect with, and this article does a really great job in laying out what that looks like.

Speaker 2: 22:14

Wonderful. And just finally for today, how can our listeners connect with you? Is that by email, LinkedIn, Instagram? Tell us more.

Speaker 3: 22:20

Yeah, sign up for our newsletter at kimcrowtoconsultingcom and follow us on LinkedIn. You can follow me, kim Crowder, and also Kim Crowder Consulting.

Speaker 2: 22:30

Really straightforward. Well, that just leads me to say for today, Kim, thank you very much for being my guest.

Speaker 3: 22:36

Thank you, it's been a pleasure, bill. Great question.

Speaker 2: 22:39

Great answers. We'll have to do this again soon, and listeners as always. Until next time, happy working.