HRchat Podcast

Cultivating Joy in the Workplace with Nic Marks

• The HR Gazette • Season 1 • Episode 698

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In this HRchat episode, we consider what it takes to achieve happiness at work. Tune in as we also share ways to better measure employee engagement.

Our guest this time is Nic Marks, CEO and Founder of Friday Pulse. Nic was once described as a “Statistician with a Soul” because of his unusual combination of ‘hard’ statistical skills and ‘soft’ people skills, he draws on scientific evidence to show that everyone benefits when businesses take happiness seriously.

In 2018, Nic founded Friday Pulse an innovative tech business based in London to be the catalyst in changing the world of work for the better.

Nic was recently a speaker at Disrupt London 19.0. Check out the latest London chapter 5-minute lightning talks here.

Questions for Nic include:

  • What does happiness at work mean to you?
  • How did you get into measuring happiness? Can one measure happiness?
  • Can employees 'game' a happiness test? After all, many employees wouldn't want low engagement scores.
  • What incentivizes employees and does that differ between generations/industries? 
  • Why does happiness at work matter?
  • What are the big drivers of team happiness?
  • If teams are happy, will they get complacent? Won’t they just slack off?
  • You have a free happiness at work test at fridayone.com. Tell me more

More About Nic

Nic has been an advisor to the UK Government Office for Science on the Wellbeing Foresight Programme and has written over 20 publications. In 2010 Nic was invited to speak at the prestigious TED global conference. His TED talk has now been watched well over two million times, and he authored one of the original three TEDbooks, entitled ‘A Happiness Manifesto’. Nic was named as one of the Top Ten Original Thinkers by the UK’s Institute of Directors magazine and his work was listed as one of Forbes Magazine’s Seven Most Powerful Ideas in 2011.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit HRGazettecom and visit hrgazettecom.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. Hello, this is your host today, bill Bannam, and in this episode, we are going to consider happiness, and specifically, happiness at work and ways to measure employee engagement. My super happy, awesome guest today is Nick Marks, ceo and founder over at Friday Pulse. Nick was once described as the statistician with a soul because of his unusual combination of hard statistical skills and soft people skills. He draws on scientific evidence to show that everyone benefits when businesses take happiness seriously, and he's also known for wearing pretty amazing shirts. I've got to tell you so. In 2018, nick founded Friday Pulse, which is a tech business based in London to be the catalyst in changing the world of work for the better, and we're going to talk about that. We're going to get to know Nick the better, and we're going to talk about that. We're going to get to know Nick today and we're going to talk generally about the importance of happiness in the workplace in this episode. Hey, nick, welcome to the HR chat show.

Speaker 3:

Thanks very much indeed, bill, and I'm glad you like my shirt.

Speaker 2:

I love your shirt. This is the second time I've been on video with Nick. Both shirts, both different shirts each time um, beautiful shirts. I'm meeting him in person next week at a disrupt event. I'm expecting another fabulous shirt. Nick, beyond the fact that you wear fabulous shirts, why don't you take a minute or two and introduce yourself a bit more to the listeners and tell them about the mission of friday pulse?

Speaker 3:

yeah, thanks, bill. So yeah, I'm a statistician, so numbers, you know, I'm that annoying guy at school that was always top of mass without really trying but I, so numbers comes naturally to me. But I soon worked out I was really into sort of applied statistics and trying to make the world a better place using numbers. So most of my career has been spent advising governments on how they measure well-being and happiness. And then about five, ten years ago I started working on work because I felt there's a real opportunity to measure employee experience, employee engagement, better, and and that's what I do and measuring happiness is my answer to that- so the word happiness makes me smile because it's a good word.

Speaker 2:

However, you used a moment ago you used those terms employee experience, employee engagement. These are terms that maybe it's because I've been doing this HR pod for too long, but these are terms I can get my head around. Ok, the concept of happiness seems a bit less tangible to me when we apply that to the workplace. So let's start there, if you don't mind, please, nick. What does happiness at work, specifically in that context, happiness at work mean to you?

Speaker 3:

Happiness is the language we all use. I mean, nobody outside of sort of an HR workplace uses the word engaged. You don't say how engaged were you at work this week to your mate, but you do say how happy were you. So it's much more how we think about our experience of work and it's really. Happiness is really a signal of good fit, that when we're happy we're a good fit for the environment that we're in. But it's also a sign that we're motivated. I mean you said happy makes me smile, gives me energy. Happiness is very related to our energy. It's very energetic for us. So it's very related to motivation as well. So in the workplace, when people are happy, it means they're a good fit for the role or for the experience of work they've got at the moment and it also means they're going to be more energetic and motivated. So there's a huge win, win, win here, which is good for the employee, good for the employer.

Speaker 2:

Is it really measurable then? Okay, so you've got this data background. So you're about to say, absolutely, it is Bill, I get that, but you can certainly get metrics around employee engagement levels for sure. But again, we think that this term, happiness might be slightly bigger than that. So how does one approach measuring happiness? What are those metrics? What are those touch points in terms of getting some useful numbers for organizations?

Speaker 3:

I would actually say happiness is more measurable than engagement, is more tangible, because when we measure engagement, you know you can take something like the gallop q12. You're actually measuring drivers of engagement. You're measuring things that supposedly lead to engagement. But with happiness we can ask people directly and people can answer very easily. You know, if you give people a one to five scale, from very unhappy through to very happy, they will place them on that scale, very themselves on that scale very easily. Particularly when you make it more specific, so when you draw it down to a time bounded area, so like saying this week, how happy were you, it's very easy to answer and of course that goes up and down very well, whereas engagement actually most people don't know what it means.

Speaker 3:

So they actually measure the drivers, but when I'm as a statistician, I really like to have a separate measure of the outcome and the drivers and then I can look at the relationship form. So you know, for example, I was speaking with a client this morning and one of their key drivers of happiness at work in their case is team cooperation, because they're very interconnected as a business. But actually for most other organizations I'll find things like how much people appreciated being the drivers, but it will change from different organizations and different contexts, and so by having the separate measures you can really see that effect going. So happiness is really measurable. It goes up and down. All of us have bad weeks. It would be crazy to think we can be happy all of the time. But for businesses, that's precisely what they want to measure. If something's going wrong, they want to know about it quickly. So if people are unhappy, find out about it quickly.

Speaker 4:

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Speaker 2:

Can't you fake it, though. Can employees gain a happiness? Test these measures of happiness, after all, maybe it's fair to say that many employees wouldn't want uh lower engagement scores. They wouldn't want their, their um management to think that they're consistently unhappy. If there is a relation a perceived relation and from the conversations that I've had on this show over the years there is between uh being happy and being productive, so it is quite possible for employees to lie yeah, I mean, but you have to make it in their self-interest.

Speaker 3:

So if someone says that they're not happy and then their team leader actually talks to them, then it's in their self-interest to report it because, you know, frustrations just start to build if we don't tackle them. So it's about making it in their self-interest, acting on the data, I mean, it is related to productivity very highly, but it's in our own interest so much because if you as an employer say to someone, I want to make a role for you that you really enjoy and you're happy in, that feels like a real fair bargain, whereas if it's I want to make your role that you're really engaged and highly productive, it feels like they're just getting more out of you for the same money. So there's a real difference in the energy about thinking about happiness and enjoyment at work. So in that way, yeah, you could game it, but it shouldn't be in your self-interest to do that.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So how can you ensure that your people are happy? How can you incentivize them? How can you reward them? Your people are happy. How can you incentivize them? How can you reward them? What works best at the moment? Does that differ between industries that you've seen, that you've worked with? Does that differ between um different generations? We often talk on this show about the different motivations of gen z's, for example, compared to millennials, compared to gen x's. What are your experiences there?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so there are differences between different groups, but the main things are on a sort of day-to-day, week-to-week basis. It's friction and flow. It's trying to eliminate frustrations for people, making sure they don't get stuck and bogged down, and it's trying to ensure that they build on their successes. So I often talk about the fact that too often we just move to the next challenge. We don't just stop and appreciate each other for the good work we're doing or thank each other. So that's really about creating flow and the friction is removing frustrations. But then, when you get into a deeper dive into it, then we've identified that there are five key drivers of happiness at work, and they are connect, which is about relationships. Relationships are the sort of foundation of a happy team.

Speaker 3:

The second one is be fair. It's treating people fairly. If they're not treated fairly, they're going to get angry. Nothing's going to work, and that includes work-life balance, by the way. The third one is to empower people. You know, micromanaging is really terrible for people's happiness. Allowing people to be themselves, use their judgment, use their strengths, is really important. The fourth is perhaps surprising, but it's challenge, which is that people like to be stretched and challenged to learn new things. And the fifth is to to inspire people, which is to give them meaning and purpose and pride in what they're doing. So those five big drivers connect, be fair, empower, challenge, inspire are the big drivers. If we look over the age span, then we do see some differences. You know, younger people tend to have a little bit more emphasis on learning and development and older people more on using their strengths doing something meaningful. But they're not big differences. The bigger differences are between companies and between different sectors, and there are differences between sectors as well.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at hrgazettecom. And now back to the show. Okay, I'll just have a quick follow upup with you on that, if you don't mind. So, five drivers of happiness empower, challenge, inspire, be fair, connect In terms of connect the connections, does that mean it's more difficult to be happy when you're working these days Because so many people are working remotely? You and I are having a wonderful video chat today, nick. We're not in the same room, so maybe we're not getting the same energy off each other as we would do if we were in the same room. Or, uh, you mentioned there in terms of more junior folks um, perhaps they need to be in an environment to bond with their colleagues, to shadow mentors, to learn, uh, in faster ways. I don't know, that's what I'm hearing. Um, so the connection piece is that more difficult in a post-pandemic world because so many of us are working remotely?

Speaker 3:

yeah, definitely seen in my data. It's fallen, you know, the levels of connection have fallen and it's it's a hard balance because a lot of people like working from home. It eliminates the commute which they don't like if they're introverted. They quite like, you know, not having to deal with colleagues that they don't like, don't like interacting with. So there's there's some good bits, but then you miss out on the the longer term team building bit and most of the long-term data that we have not so much from covid but for when telecommuting started and all that sort of stuff in the 90s is that people that work from home get increasingly isolated and they miss out on career development. So there's some tension between short term happiness and longer term happiness and and that's a little more hard to pick up statistically in the moment but I think where it ends up is that for most people, hybrid is good.

Speaker 3:

You know, and you know, like my, my son is starting out as an accountant. He's 25 years old. You know he wants to be in the office, you know, three or four days a week because he's learning. You know, and he didn't like it at all in covid when he was stuck at home, you know, whereas some people with young, killed children or you know, families might prefer it, but it's a there's there's a tension. There's definitely a tension there which isn't resolved simply by happiness. It has to go beyond that into thinking about long-term career development and also the development of the business and organization. I'm not pro this. Oh my God, we've all got to come back five days a week. We don't trust you. I think it's finding a new, flexible model is where we are.

Speaker 2:

Given that you've got a background in numbers and data, I'm not surprised that your son is an accountant. That makes sense. So here's a question for you if teams are happy, are they going to get complacent nick when they when they just slack off a little bit?

Speaker 3:

if they're, they're very happy, they're chill, they're not worried about their, their job, for example, are they more likely to get yeah, I, I sometimes identify different types of teams and I think of it as like a two by two grid between happiness, unhappy and happy, and also low performance and high performance. And if you can imagine that grid, where you want to be on that grid is happy and high performing, that's a great team. Where you really don't want to be is the bottom quadrant, which is a miserable team, which is low performing and unhappy. But then we've got the two diagonal quadrants and the top left is slacking teams or coasting teams. They're happy and low performing. So that is the fear of a lot of leaders that if we make people happy, they will slack.

Speaker 3:

Where I find five to six times as many teams is in the other quadrant, which is the burning out quadrant, which are the quadrant of teams that are unhappy and high performing. So there's far more teams in my data that sit in that quadrant, so the slacking teams as possible. But really that's a lack of business focus, that's a lack of having clear objectives, a clear vision for the team, whereas the burning out one is a lack of support for the team, a lack of respect for the team, over demanding of them. So you know there are different ways that you can fit into that. But the goal for everybody should be to be happy and high performing. You know this is not about being happy in life, though Happiness at work really affects, really, really affects your happiness in life. You know much more than people realize. Actually, having a job you enjoy is much better for your happiness and health than having a bit more money. So, but you know, happy and high performing is where we want to be okay, thank you.

Speaker 2:

We are coming towards the end of this particular conversation already. Nick. What bill? Let's keep going. I'm having so much fun. Don't worry, we get to hang out next week in person. That disrupts. Uh, just a couple more questions for you for today, if that's okay. Um, you have a free happiness at work test and the url for that, listeners, is fridaypulsecom. Forward. Slash the dash happiness dash test and I'm sure we'll include a link to that in our show notes as well. Tell us a bit about the test, why folks should give it a crack.

Speaker 3:

I believe it takes five minutes to do yeah, actually there is a shortcut, which is fridayonecom, but um, so it is a. It is a test about the drivers of happiness at work connect, be fair, empower, challenge, inspire. It will give you feedback on how your current role is. So it's a bit like one of those 16 personality tests, except it's about your happiness at work and it gives you it's a reflection tool. Except it's about your happiness at work and it gives you it's a reflection tool. Really, it's about how you can think about your role at this time and how it's going, and it's the same questions that we use with our clients when we're looking at their drivers of happiness at work. So our clients typically do a quarterly survey based on that questionnaire, and they also do a weekly pulse to make sure that things are going well every week. So, um, yeah, so that, and so the test is free to use and and it's it's fun, people like it rock and roll.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much, and just finally for today, nick, how can our listeners connect with you? How can they learn more about friday pulse? And have you got anything else going on beyond attending the amazing disrupt uh london nextiday polls? And have you got anything else going on beyond attending the amazing disrupt uh london next week? Of course, have you got any other events that you're speaking out or getting involved with, anything else you'd like to highlight to our community.

Speaker 3:

Well, I'm looking forward to the event next week. I am out there speaking at at events, uh, in and around london mainly. Um, I am working on a book at the moment called happiness is a Serious Business, but it's probably a year away from publication because it's just with the publisher at the moment. So that's really the big thing. You can find me LinkedIn is the best place. So I'm Nick N-I-C no K Marks and you'll find me the happiness guy on LinkedIn. That's where I mainly post at the moment. Yeah, and fridaypulsecom is the business Perfect.

Speaker 2:

Well, that just leads me to say for today, nick, with no K, thank you very much for being my guest on this episode of the HR Chat Show. Thanks very much, bill and listeners, as always, and somewhat appropriately today, as always, until next time, happy working.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work? Subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit HRGazettecom.

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