HRchat Podcast
Listen to the HRchat podcast by HR Gazette to get insights and tips from HR leaders, influencers and tech experts. Topics include HR Tech, AI, Leadership, Talent, Recruitment, Employee Engagement, Recognition, Wellness, DEI, and Company Culture.
Hosted by Bill Banham and other HR enthusiasts, the HRchat show publishes interviews with influencers, leaders, analysts, and those in the HR trenches 2-4 times each week. Shows are typically 15 to 30 minutes.
Past guests are from organizations including ADP, SAP, Ceridian, IBM, UPS, Deloitte Consulting LLP, Simon Sinek Inc, NASA, SHRM, Government of Canada, Hacking HR, Ultimate Software, McLean & Company, Microsoft, Shopify, DisruptHR, Talent Board, Virgin Pulse, Salesforce, Make-A-Wish Foundation, and Coca-Cola Beverages Company.
Podcast Music Credit"Funky One"Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
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HRchat Podcast
Creating a Supportive Workplace with Tom Oxley
In this episode, we talk about ways to support mental wellness in the workplace. The guest this time is Tom Oxley, Workplace Director at Bamboo Mental Health.
Tom is an independent consultant specializing in mental health at work. He reviews employers, gives talks, and trains people. His material comes from 100s of interviews with employees who have experienced poor mental health – and more than 35 organizations that he has reviewed, from PLCs to local SMEs. He believes any employer can support any employee on mental health – but not at any cost. Tom spoke at the World Congress on Health and Safety and you can see his TEDx talk here.
Questions for Tom include:
- Why is supporting mental wellbeing important to you?
- Presenteeism costs 1.8 times more than absenteeism. How can managers be better at spotting signs of stress and/or anxiety?
- You spoke earlier about "grown-up conversations". You believe that "any employer can support any employee on mental health – but not at any cost". You also promote supporting employee mental health "while keeping boundaries" What do you mean by this?
- You spoke at the Disrupt session within the Cambridge AI Summit on June 18. Tell us about your session.
- You recently spoke at the 23rd World Congress on Safety & Health at Work. Tell us more.
- How can organizations achieve psychological safety in the workplace?
We do our best to ensure editorial objectivity. The views and ideas shared by our guests and sponsors are entirely independent of The HR Gazette, HRchat Podcast and Iceni Media Inc.
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Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom. And visit hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2:Tom Oxley. Welcome to the HR Chat Show. Beyond my wee introduction a minute ago, why don't you take a couple of minutes and tell our listeners about yourself?
Speaker 3:So I've had three careers. The first one was in public relations, the second one was in corporate responsibility and this third one has been in mental health in the workplace. I've been doing it for about a decade and I do two things I review organizations how they support people on mental health or not, and I train people. You know I talk some training for leaders, managers and non-managing staff. So I really like to get into the you know rummage around the underwear drawers of an organisation, find out what it's really like to work there and to experience poor mental health.
Speaker 3:I will interview people who've experienced things like stress, anxiety, depression. I will talk to managers about what the processes are like. I'll talk to the hr team about policies and practices. I'll talk to stakeholders. I will really get to know an organization and play back what it's like to feel ill while working for them and how they can improve that support process. And that is um, that's what I do for them and I know in my heart that that is. That is a personal passion coming from when I wasn't very well and had to have three months out of work. Uh, really not, not really knowing what I was doing or where I was going was very unwell. Luckily, I was quite well supported, but it's been a mission of mine to enable organizations to support their people and get it right for them and get it right for the organization.
Speaker 4:Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at hrgazettecom. And now back to the show.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you very much. So, listeners before this conversation with Tom today was walking my dogs and, uh, I was re-listening to tom's uh, ted talk from a few years back. Uh, in it, tom, one thing that you mentioned which I thought I must ask him about this uh, you mentioned that presenteeism costs 1.8 times more than absenteeism. The question for you, therefore, is how can managers be better at spotting signs of stress and or anxiety in the workplace?
Speaker 3:just to notice when somebody is not themselves out of character, and that might be performance, it might be mood or behavior, or it might be something to do with their appearance, and that that is a feeling we often get in our guts when we're working with somebody or looking with somebody. You know, you know our, our senses are telling us that there's something up with this person. And you know, I think our instinct needs to be that, when we experience the signs and the behaviors around poor mental health, our instinct needs to be that there is something wrong with this person's world. Not with them, they're not broken but there's something kicking off and it's putting pressure on this person or it's making them feel low. Well, there's been an event in their life that's bringing them down and taking them away from their ability to do the job that they could previously do. So our instinct is to notice and to have a adult, adult conversation with them. So not not parent, child I'm not telling you what to do, not, commander in chief, I'm not going to bark orders at you but adult, adult. So I, you and I can sit down, we can have a cup of coffee and we can talk about the stuff that's going on and what support you need from me as a manager in order for you to get through a difficult time and keep working if possible, and work can be part of people's recovery.
Speaker 3:I'm not an advocate, that you know. As soon as somebody mentions mental health, they need to be kind of whisked off and wrapped up in cotton wool. That doesn't work for anybody. So it's really about noticing, talking and coaching rather than trying to fix people's problems. And the last thing you want is your boss to turn around and pretend to be some sort of half-assed therapist. But you do need somebody to have your back during a difficult time, because it's going to happen.
Speaker 3:I know this. You know suffering is part of our lives, and if I talk about the big boulders that go in our rucksack, our backpack, they're things like financial health issues, grief, bereavement, um, family stuff. You know that they they will happen from time to time. It's not that they might, they definitely will multiple times, and during those periods it's really hard for me to be at my best at work, but it makes a heck of a difference on my side and that's really what I want from my manager. I don't want you to fix and solve my problems. You can't, but you can be there while I do it and you can understand while I might not be 100%, but flexibility will go a long way. So that's an important way of keeping people well and at work.
Speaker 5:That's an important way of keeping people well and at work. Once in a while, an event series is born that shakes things up, it makes you think differently and it leaves you inspired. That event is Disrupt HR. The format is 14 speakers, 5 minutes each and slides rotate every 15 seconds. If you're an HR professional, a CEO, a technologist or a community leader and you've got something to say about talent, culture or technology, disrupt is the place. It's coming soon to a city near you. Learn more at disrupthrco.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you very much. So in your TED Talk, you use examples of a couple of folks. Both had grief, both had recently lost someone. Actually, to your point, a moment ago, you used an example of I think his name was Nick, who'd lost his mum, and there was a lady who worked for a charity who'd lost her dad recently, and you used the way that managers treated those two folks and reacted to their stress, their anger, their grief which are both very different as an example of actually you know what, if you get it right, your people will stick around. The lady who worked for the charity I think you mentioned in the talk, she was still there. She'd been there for a number of years, she was in a much better place, productive, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2:I've got a question here somewhere. That's a little bit that's around. If you don't mind talking a bit about that connection between getting the support right for your people and retaining them for longer, because this year 2024 is is all about retaining people. The projections are showing that folks will be sticking around for longer. Um, I wonder if that's because mental health in the workplace is being, uh, better addressed. I don't know.
Speaker 3:tell us more in the examples I gave um. One was a um, an old school, quite a brutal form of management. And the guy who lost his mum and his grief had turned into depression, nick, he tried to speak up, he tried to get support he was entitled to under uk law, as it happens and he was denied that. So he he then sought support from his doctor, he was signed off, he was in and out of work. He was trying to soldier on but it became untenable and eventually he left the organization with a significant payout. So that is an example of an organization really not applying a supportive process and method and losing out financially as a result.
Speaker 3:I am, at the same time we've got we've got a really lovely guy, he was good at his job, he would smash his appraisals for out the past five years. Who's now, you know, in pieces and on the sidelines. So we we've got this sort of legal case and a moral case and a financial case all pointing in the same direction and that is, if my work space and place and my team is a psychologically safe place to work, if I can speak up, if I'm listened to, if I'm supported, I'm much more likely to stay, and that happens with the big events, like happened to Nick, but it also happens in small events as well. So every day that I go to work, I'm making quite a complex set of decisions about whether or not what's my relationship like with my manager, what's my relationship like with the workplace, what's my relationship like with this job, and if I am under micro stresses, then I'm going to be questioning that relationship and if something else comes up, I'm going to be more likely to be looking elsewhere for it. So if, as an organization or as a leader or as a manager, you want to keep your good people nick was definitely one of those then it's worth investing in this idea that we we need to create supportive cultures, and one where we recognise mental health as something that is not a sign that there's something wrong with me. It's a sign that there's something wrong in my world and I can get the support while I manage that. And work can absolutely be part of people's recovery plan. Let's say, for example, I was going through a separation, divorce. My work is going to be very important to me as a structure, as a sense of community, the money, but equally if I'm moving house or if I'm moving out, if I've got equally I, you know you, if I'm moving house, or if I'm moving out, if I've got court cases or whatever it might be, you know you're not going to get 100% of me. You know I'm not going to be on my A game all day, every day, during that time. So it's about figuring out that, that algorithm of what support is necessary. What can I do to get the best out of this person? What have they got? And to have the following question in your mind is not what they can't do, but what can they do. And I think when we start to look at this as a normal and quite natural process, we can take away a lot of the stigma, bring out the conversations that lead to resolution and come up with a plan to help another human through a difficult time. And, my goodness me, they will be loyal back. The loyalty that gets paid back will will will be double fold.
Speaker 3:I was with a guy who was a doctor on an air ambulance. So helicopters comes into you know, nasty accidents, that kind of thing and they, uh, he had a quite a traumatic incident they had to attend to and his medical director said you're not yourself and we're going to take you off because we need a. We're going to need you fit to fly, but we're going to take you off and we need you to to go and, you know, recuperate. We need you to to understand what support you need and get that. And this was at the same time.
Speaker 3:I think his father was also dying in the hospital as well. So, you know, the organisation really showed up for this guy and a couple of months later his father had died. But he'd got the support he needed and they were short of a doctor on Christmas Day and you know he was the first to put his hand up and go look, I'll do this, I'll do this shift, are you sure? Yeah, of course, you know. You were there for me. I want this. You know I like my job, I want to do it. And he really showed up for the organization in return and you get that a lot so as part of my homework, I was checking out you recently.
Speaker 2:Uh, we were part of a webinar. It was a couple weeks ago back, I think, um, and uh earlier on you're talking about having grown-up conversations. You uh in on your description there for the webinar. It said that you believe that any employer can support any employee on mental health, but not at any cost. That that was interesting. And then I was looking at something else I don't know if it's one of your posts or something um, and you were promoting supporting employee mental health while keeping boundaries. You said, um, this is, this is interesting, so okay, so it's terribly important to have the right conversations to find ways to support people, but when does one overstep? How can one keep those boundaries?
Speaker 3:OK, let's. Let's talk about an individual supporting an individual first. So when I am a care seeker so there's stuff happening in my world I need support. I'm a care seeker and I go to my manager who's the caregiver. All right, that.
Speaker 3:What I want from my care giver is somebody who has their feet on the firm ground. I want them to be well, I want them to guide me and listen to me and support me. But I do not want them to jump in the water with me and you know, say, oh my God, this place is awful. You know, the management is dreadful and they're bored. Oh my God, the work. I don't want that. So as a caregiver, I need to be calm, kind and curious, but I've got to be really careful not to try and fix everything or diagnose conditions or or create some kind of pity party. I want, I want to have an adult conversation with this person. That means, yeah, we can talk about difficult stuff, but I'm not your therapist. And at the end of that conversation, you and I agree that you're going to have some appointments with a counselor or get some further information about a legal situation you're going through, whatever it is, and I'll give you some time to have those appointments. So we agree that thing and then, as your caregiver, I stop doing that and I return to my firm ground and I come back to being your manager. So we find a level for that conversation and then I step back and I become your manager. So it's quite interesting to do that.
Speaker 3:I think that managers think they've got to have all the answers and they don't. I think some of the best questions are that you know, what do you think is right for you at this time? What can we expect from you? What are you going to do to support yourself? So it's not the organisation or the manager's role to do all the fixing and the sorting out. Yeah, we can facilitate some appointments. Make up the time, yeah, you can. You know, we'll give you an office to help make those difficult phone calls, you know, while you talk to a counsellor. But we do need to keep that integrity on the worker-workplace relationship.
Speaker 3:So when an organisation is looking at this subject, so from an organisational point of view, I don't let everybody who says I'm experiencing mental health. This is not some kind of free for all where we can just kind of chuck our tools in the air and storm off the site. You know there are things that I can expect of you and as an organization, I need to put that process in place. So I need to have policies that call out what the absence procedure is. I need to have call out what the absence procedure is.
Speaker 3:I need to have um hr people who are trained to have these conversations. I need to have a charter, for example, where I will say what we will do and what we won't do, so people know what's what, and that is actually very helpful if I'm experiencing stress, anxiety and depression, because those are times when I'm when I'm, my thinking might be more cloudy or a bit wobbly or full of anxiety. So it's helpful for me to have those structures and if, at the end of the day, we've had the adult conversations, we've used the processes and my behavior is still not appropriate, even if I've got a poor mental health condition right.
Speaker 3:Appropriate even if I've got a poor mental health condition right. But mental health helps us understand poor behavior in the workplace, you know, once, maybe twice, but it doesn't excuse it in the long run. So, after I have, after we've exhausted the you know, the adult chats and the action plan and a bit of support and time off or whatever it is after that, then there is a point where I go look, we've done what we said we're going to do. It's your go, and we do have requirements from your role and we need those met. So we need to now have a discussion about whether or not the role is still right for you, if the amount of days per week is right for you.
Speaker 3:Some of the jobs and we're always seeking to try and get a positive outcome with this but and it is a is a strong, but the end game is not always somebody staying at an organization or staying in their same role.
Speaker 3:That's not appropriate and sometimes though this sounds mean to say, but it's not sometimes we can sometimes set people free from a role or an organization that's giving them anxiety, that's exacerbating their depression, that is toxic and triggering for them and they can draw a line under it and go and open up a new chapter somewhere else. Also for the organization, we need to recognize that our instincts to support people, yes, but when people experience poor mental health and the behavior or the performance drops, that affects other people as well. So we don't just let it slide, we don't just kind of ignore it, we don't brush it under the carpet. We do. We do offer flexibility, but we, we also sort it, and that's good for both sides. So so the organization knows where it is, the team knows where it is, the individual knows where it is, and that kind of framework can really be helpful at a time when somebody feels lost tom we've got two minutes left of this particular conversation.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to challenge you, as I often do on this, minutes left of this particular conversation. So I'm going to challenge you as I often do on this show. I like to mix things up. I'm going to challenge you in 60 seconds or less. Tell us about your super awesome, cool session at uh, the disrupt cambridge uh, which is happening within the uh first cambridge ai summit. We've done a couple in in Norwich. They seem to like one there. We're doing one in Peterborough as well. We're looking at some other places. This is the first one in Cambridge. You're kind enough to say that you're going to get involved in 60 seconds or less. Tease our listeners in terms of what they can expect from this session.
Speaker 3:So AI and mental health and workplaces. Well, I like to keep things positive bill, so I am going to look at all the positive aspects of this. I I'm not a techie and I never will be, and I absolutely recognize that people are anxious about jobs at the moment, but I think that we do have some opportunities for improved work-life balance. I also think that we have some improved opportunities to manage workload and stress, and I also think that there are some potential mental health interventions that might be especially useful.
Speaker 3:If I am an old school manager that does not know my way around this subject, so you know you won't be surprised to know that I've had a few conversations with AI and I was actually I was goading it, I was teasing it, to be mean to the colleague who was who I wanted to kind of send this email to and it wouldn't. It wouldn't let me Bill. So it it doesn't carry all the stigma of the past thousands of generations where we have to be all masculine and tough it out. So I think there's a lot of hope, a lot of positivity and I'll be focusing on that.
Speaker 2:Excellent, I think you had about four seconds to spare. Very good, okay, and just finally, tom, how can folks connect with and learn more about you?
Speaker 3:so I'm around on on LinkedIn and one of the best ways to connect with me is to try and find my TEDx talk workplace mental health, all you need to know. For now there is another, tom oxley, who's a neuroscientist, talking about brain stems, and his talk's very good, but mine's about mental health. So find me on the tedx talk, on tedcom or youtube or via linkedin okay, excellent.
Speaker 2:Well, that just leaves me to say for today tom oxley, you wonderful human being, thank you very much for being my guest and listeners, as always. Until next time, happy working.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work? Subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom.
