Analyzing the Four-Day Work Week with Grace Tallon

Rethink everything you know about work patterns with Grace Tallon, a passionate advocate for the four-day model. Grace's fascinating journey from a public representative in Dublin to championing a reduced work schedule challenges the conventional mindset, highlighting how technological progress hasn't yet lightened our load. She brings to light the flexibility struggles faced by workers and makes a compelling case for reshaping our traditional work norms to secure a more harmonious work-life balance.

Questions for Grace include:

• What first sparked your interest in reducing work time?
• What’s wrong with the standard 5-day, 40-hour workweek anyway?
• Only jobs with tech that augment jobs applicable for a 4-day work week? 
• Should one get the same pay if they are doing fewer hours or are you saying folks can work extended hours over 4 days? 
• What are the biggest reasons why leaders are attracted to the concept of reducing the working hours of their employees?
• How do you help organizations successfully transition to a shorter work week? 
• What are the biggest or most common challenges companies need to overcome?
• Where do you think the four-day workweek movement will be in 2030, will we all be working less?

Join Bill and Grace as they explore the future trends set to redefine our working world. We'll discuss the realistic implementation of a four-day workweek in diverse industries, from healthcare to manufacturing, and spotlight successful case studies from sectors like advertising and law. Discover how increasing headcount and optimizing technology can maintain efficiency and how a shorter work week could enhance personal time and life quality. We address concerns about pay and productivity, insisting that smart planning and operational changes are key to this transformation. The four-day workweek isn't a one-size-fits-all solution; it's a flexible, innovative approach that requires visionary leadership to customize and adopt. Don't miss this insightful conversation that could inspire a groundbreaking shift in your own workplace.

Chapters

• 0:03 Rethinking the Standard Workweek
• 7:55 Future Work Trends and Four-Day Workweek

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom.

Speaker 2: 0:25

Grace, it's my pleasure to welcome you to the HR Chat Show today. Hello, how are you?

Speaker 3: 0:30

How are you, Bill? Thanks for having me Delighted to be chatting to you.

Speaker 2: 0:34

So Grace listeners for those who are not familiar with Grace just yet is the other half, the other 50% of the dynamic duo, along with the fantastic Joe O'Connor, who's been on the show before and spoken at one of the events I'm involved with, disrupt Buffalo. But it's great to get Grace on and talk more about the four-day work week. But before we get into that, grace, why don't you take a minute or two and introduce yourself to our listeners?

Speaker 3: 1:04

Thanks, bill. I suppose the most interesting part, I guess, of my journey is how I ended up where I am today, which is supporting companies to work smarter and shorter. I first became interested in the concept of reduced work time when there was a large survey done in the public sector in Ireland. At the time I was actually a public representative. I spent nine years as a, as a councillor, on a council in Dublin and during that time I was really fascinated by the survey that took place, which was showing people were choosing to go back to work, but on reduced time, and these people were mostly working parents and they were mostly women. They were going back to work on reduced time and reduced pay, but the fascinating part of it was that their outputs stayed the same, their job expectations stayed the same and their responsibilities stayed the same. So this was proving that the idea of Parkinson's law a task expands to fit the time it's given actually is born true. And that survey was conducted by Forsa and led by Joe O'Connor, who you mentioned at the start the other half of work time reduction and that led Jo down the path then into four day week, and it wasn't until three years later then that I joined the movement and together we're trying to support ambitious leaders to make this change.

Speaker 3: 2:38

I'm actually a professional musician by trade and training, so I use a lot of the skills that I learned to become a classical musician, which is practicing, and you have to practice new habits. You have to practice a mindset in order, a new mindset in order to get yourself to a shorter working week. So I am really loving the fact that I'm able to marry these skills and really support people to get the most out of their life. I guess we're talking we talk about work so much when, when we're referring to reduced work time, because obviously it's it's your work that you're trying to to to shorten in order to live your life. But isn't that the most magic part of it is that people get to spend a little bit more time with the people they love, doing the things that they love or finding something that they love, and that's and that's the thing that really excites me about being involved in this as a man who can't find enough hours in the day right now.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Listeners, we've just had our second kid. It's uh, it's pretty, uh pretty bonkers for us at the moment. Um, I, I fully support the idea of being able to compartmentalize one's life a little bit better and then offering a bit more work-life balance. As joe knows, because he and I got into a debate after disrupt buffalo, I still wonder how successful folks can do this, but it should absolutely be the aim and uh, um, well, let's, let's start there. What's wrong with the standard five day, 40 hour work week? Anyway, you know, uh, personally, I run my own business. Um, I, I would struggle to to fit everything I need to do into, uh, four days, but I absolutely understand that there are lots of benefits. Why don't you, why don't you spell that out for us?

Speaker 3: 4:30

I suppose, if you think about all of the changes that we've had and the advancements in technology, the fact that we're still working the same hours that we did at a time when women made up only 20% of the workforce, you know that's the thing that baffles me is that we haven't had a major push to just say no, we're not going to work like that. I mean, of course, people who work for themselves, that's a choice. So this is the biggest aspect around. This is that often people who are naysayers and against this idea are the people who have 100% flexibility and ownership over when and where they work. So what I really think is important to keep at the top of this conversation is that what we're trying to do is move the needle on the norm. Of course, people can decide some people can decide to work seven days a week, but what we need to see is moving what is expected from everybody, which is currently now, generally, most jobs are nine to five, monday to Friday, with zero flexibility. Covid has pushed us into a place where employers are sort of being forced to give options to work from home, to give a little bit more flexibility, to allow people God forbid drop their children to school. And when I talk about reducing work time, I'm not talking about cutting out that flexibility, because flexibility is still hugely important to the organisations that I work with, is still hugely important to the organizations that I work with. It's not that all of a sudden now you don't get to go to that appointment, or all of a sudden you can't drop your children to school in the morning and come in at half past nine, for instance, because you're on a you're on a four day week. That flexibility has to stay there and everybody has to work together. But you know, how can we still be working the same hours? You know how can we still be working the same hours? How can you know some lawyers are working 60 hour work weeks?

Speaker 3: 6:32

With all of this new technology, I think you know it seems like a really crazy idea to me that as a society we wouldn't be pushing harder for it. And particularly with advances in AI, are we going to use those to share the benefits or are we going to allow companies to company which they will, and they will bank that for the business? So you know, so much of what we do is try to sort of advocate for the fact that this is not necessarily fair an option for everybody, but there are certainly a huge amount of businesses that will be attracting better talent, they'll be retaining their talent, they're going to have happier and healthier employees. This is a triple dividend policy. You know. It's good for society, it's good for the economy and it's good for the environment. And again, you know, as you're pointing out, bill, for the environment. And again, you know, as you're pointing out, bill, people will still choose to run a business and maybe work seven days a week, but we're trying to move the needle on what the norm is.

Speaker 2: 7:37

Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at hrgazettecom. And now back to the show. Okay, very good. Thank you very much. So, as you mentioned there towards the end of your answer, it ain't going to work for everybody, because there are some jobs that perhaps are not being augmented by, for example, ai, and more traditional needs of those people remain in terms of doing longer hours. Can you, can you suggest some jobs where absolutely it's possible to cut down to a four-day work week and maybe a few roles where, for now, in a way, longer hours are perhaps still applicable?

Speaker 3: 8:27

well, let let me first start with. You know, people will often say to me oh well, it's never going to work. In health care, we're already, you know, really struggling with numbers. It's, you know, it just isn't going to work. And my answer to that is always in health care today, currently. My answer to that is always in health care today, currently, we will need to increase headcount, but that isn't a bad thing and that needs to happen anyway. So when you look at the cost of losing people, the cost of sickness, the cost of negligence in health care, and you balance that out with what it's going to cost to increase headcount, those are the sort of things that people need to start really diving into, and brave, courageous leaders need to be looking at that and need to be trialling what that's going to look like financially, because you don't know in six months, you don't know in a year. This is something you need to commit to and and and to try to to flesh out the how of it, um, and manufacturing the same. We need people on the line, we need people working all the time, um, but maybe it isn't that you that you need people working. Maybe you need to invest in better, better equipment. Maybe you need to invest in getting whatever the top of the line manufacturing equipment is, that you would previously have said, well, that's too costly, we can't spend on that. But when you look at what it costs to invest in that, and then you look at the cost of losing employees, of illness, of not being able to attract talent, they often balance each other out and there's been there's been some examples of that as well.

Speaker 3: 10:05

I suppose industries that it's working really well in today, that it isn't as much of a of a shift and it isn't as much of a lift. That's not to say that it's easy. This isn't rocket science, but it isn't an easy thing to do either. Um, advertising agencies are making it work, law firms are making it work and architecture firms are making it work. Credit unions are making it work. Law firms are making it work. Architecture firms are making it work. Credit unions are making it work and they're going through a process whereby they're really shifting mindsets.

Speaker 3: 10:36

You know a lot of people who look at the four day week and think it isn't going to work. They don't really investigate and learn about what goes into the pre-trial, so people don't just go go straight into to trialing a shorter working week. Certainly, working with us, you're going to do three to six months of fleshing out of a diagnostic, of looking at how your operation works, of making those changes slowly. It's not an overnight process.

Speaker 3: 11:06

People have ingrained mindsets and you know most companies have really, really ambitious people working for them as well that get a fright with the idea of they're going to lose a day. You know they love what they do, they want to be really good at it. They don't want to lose that day. So there's a huge amount of work that goes into changing how they actually do what they're doing and cut out all the dead weight which could be meetings, which are interruptions in the day, changing how the overall organization works. And just referring back to what I was saying in terms of how I first got interested in this, you know when you look at your organization, there are already women within that organization that are doing the work in four days. So if you're a leader thinking about this, have a look at your organization and see is there somebody already in this business that's making this a success and how are they doing it?

Speaker 2: 12:01

OK, very good, Thank you very much. So you guys are not advocating that it should be four days a week with extended hours per day, so, for example, 10 hours each day over four days. You guys are saying it should be four days a week at the same sort of amount of time as folks are putting in on a daily basis at the moment, if not less, if it's not needed because technology is augmenting. So if that's the case, grace, should folks get paid the same amount as if they were working five days a week?

Speaker 3: 12:32

Well, I suppose the four-day week is the sexy headline-grabbing title and it's the thing that people are most familiar with, and you know the name of our organisation, and I say a shorter work week a lot, because it doesn't work for everybody to shut their doors on a Friday or indeed do some sort of roster, so that isn't going to work for every organisation. A lot of people reduce their hours within the days, so people might leave a little bit earlier or might come in a little bit later, depending on the needs of the organisation. Sometimes that would even be the case throughout the organization. Different departments might work different rosters, depending on how they work together and the interdependency. You know there's lots of ways to do this and there isn't one way that's going to work for every single organization, or even, you know, every industry, because obviously each business has different needs and they are often servicing clients. They have different needs. So that's the process of going through. How can we do this? How can we shorten our days or shorten our week? Um, and it it doesn't always look like a four-day work week, but again you're you're asking people to do the same work, but not the same way. So they're doing the same work. So, yes, they're going to get paid the same, and they're really A hugely powerful.

Speaker 3: 13:55

Part of this is, you know, leaders will ask well, how are you going to? You know how, all of a sudden, I've been trying to get people to use this system for years and they, you know, they say you know it doesn't work or they're just not committed to doing that, they're not committed to trying to drive efficiencies within the business. How, all of a sudden, are they going to be? But it's this idea that you're giving back something that is so powerful. It's this idea that you're giving back something that is so powerful.

Speaker 3: 14:22

The idea of getting time back is such a huge incentive to people that it's really amazing to see how their mindsets change almost immediately when they start to look for the how. Instead of you know, oh, that's not going to work. I mean, I think we all have, you know, an example in our minds of you know, there's often too many systems. You know, you've so many different places. Do you have to input information? But all of a sudden, teams are coming together and thinking you know, let's just think about how we can really make this work, and then it's all solution based, because they know that what they're going to get in return is so transformative that they're so committed to finding a way. So it's not the leaders that are going to make that change, it's it's it's the teams and the individuals themselves okay, thank you very much.

Speaker 2: 15:12

We are already almost at the end of this particular conversation, grace. There's a couple more questions for you before we wrap up for today, and then I'll just have to get you on again, because I've got loads more. I wanted to ask when do you see the four-day workweek movement in, say, 2030? Will we all be working less? What's the hope, what's the vision for 2030?

Speaker 3: 15:38

I suppose the future of of work, you know I say is shorter, but the future of work is is going to not just be shorter, it's going to be very, very different. Young people are demanding more, and rightly so. I've read an awful lot of things about you know. The young people need to be working harder doing the grind. I had to do X, y and Z and young people are saying well, why, why would I do all that when we have all of these new technologies and better ways of doing things, and they're ambitious to do things better and to create a better world and to use things like reduced work time to live better, to live healthier, to contribute to society.

Speaker 3: 16:27

I always talk about the difference that having more time to invest in your community will have.

Speaker 3: 16:34

So many people say you know, I don't know who my local representatives are, I'm not involved in local groups because I don't have time. So it's young people want to do these things, they want to create a better world and they know that that reduced work time is one of those things they all. They also want flexibility, so it's about giving people autonomy over over how and when they work, coupled with the likes of reduced work time. So I believe that work will look very different, and work time reduction is only one part of that puzzle. But I'm certainly excited to see where we can go and hopeful that more of the leaders that really have the ability to move this to move the needle on working time reduction. Steve Cohen is investing in golf, I believe, because he believes the future of work is shorter and he thinks people are going to be playing more golf. But it's people like that who could move their organisation to a shorter working week and really put their money where their mouth is.

Speaker 2: 17:41

Excellent, and just finally for today, grace, how can folks connect with you and learn more about all of the awesome work that you and Joe get up to?

Speaker 3: 17:50

So you can find us at worktimereductioncom or shorterworkweekcom, and I would really encourage you just to start the conversation, even if you feel today this is never going to work. It's great to just begin to talk about it and begin to investigate, and I'm always delighted to give 15 minutes or half an hour to people just to flesh out the how, and so invite anyone that is interested to drop me a line and I'd be delighted to chat with you.

Speaker 2: 18:18

Wonderful. Well, that just leaves me to say for today Grace, you are a good human being. I like you a lot. We were introduced, by the way, by Ian Kinsella. Ian introduced me to Joe, and then I got to know you. You're good people, so keep doing what you're doing. Thank you very much for being my guest today.

Speaker 3: 18:35

Thanks, bill, my pleasure Great chatting with you.

Speaker 1: 18:44

And listeners as always. Until next time, happy working. Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work? Subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit HRGazettecom.