HRchat Podcast
Listen to the HRchat Podcast by HR Gazette to get insights and tips from HR leaders, influencers and tech experts. Topics covered include HR Tech, HR, AI, Leadership, Talent, Recruitment, Employee Engagement, Recognition, Wellness, DEI, and Company Culture.
Hosted by Bill Banham, Bob Goodwin, Pauline James, and other HR enthusiasts, the HRchat show publishes interviews with influencers, leaders, analysts, and those in the HR trenches 2-4 times each week.
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HRchat Podcast
Becoming Crisis Ready: Mental Health with Dr. Bill Howatt
In this episode of the HRchat show, we talk about what it means to become crisis ready in the workplace, a must for HR professionals and leaders alike. Join us as we sit down with Dr. Bill Howatt, an expert in workplace mental health and capacity building, alongside HR media figure Todd Humber. Together, they unveil the Crisis Ready program, a groundbreaking initiative designed to equip individuals with practical tools to navigate interpersonal crises effectively. Hear firsthand how this program aims to establish a workplace culture where mental health is prioritized with the same urgency as physical health.
In the discussion, we look at the complexities of recognizing and addressing workplace mental health challenges. Dr. Howatt emphasizes the importance of creating environments that extend beyond the bare minimum of emergency resources. We tackle the pressing question of whether organizations are genuinely maintaining momentum in supporting mental health post-pandemic. Through this conversation, you'll gain insights into fostering a culture of kindness, accountability, and purpose, ensuring leaders understand and prioritize the emotional well-being of their teams.
Finally, we delve into the legal and ethical obligations of employers in cultivating trauma-informed workplaces. Learn about the evolving landscape of workplace safety regulations, including the necessity for respectful debates and authentic communication. This episode is a treasure trove of practical insights, from building competence-based models to ensuring that training translates into meaningful outcomes. Don't miss out on learning how to access further resources and connect with Crisis Ready Workplaces for continued development in this crucial area.
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Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. Hello listeners, this is your host today, bill Bannam, and in this conversation we're going to focus on the concept of what it means to be crisis ready in the workplace, and the benefits for leaders, for employees and for the organization as a whole. And back on the show after far too long is none other than dr bill howard thanks for inviting me back.
Speaker 3:It's been a bit has been.
Speaker 2:It's been a while, uh, okay, so the focus of this conversation today is around this idea of being crisis ready. Being ready to handle what's being thrown at you is my, is my wee summation there. We'll get into the detail shortly and the the motivation is you have just recently launched a new program called called crisis ready.
Speaker 2:That's with yourself, and the other face of the program is todd humber um who certainly our canadian listeners I'm sure will be pretty familiar with uh, he, he's, uh he's a bit of a name when it comes to hr media in canada and more widely in north america, I think. So let's start there. Just take a couple of minutes if you don't mind, and sort of uh, give our listeners an overview of you, your, your background, why this is important to you and also why you partnered with Todd.
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah, yeah. So I would go into a whole bio but I'll just kind of. I've been playing around in the workplace mental health space for quite a few years, years and one of the areas I've been really focused on is capacity building in organizations and around helping capacity building. So one of my motivations is I do a lot of work with HR professionals and when I look, for example, the HR certifications and the training, what people are getting and getting benefits, training and you know benefits, training and different things on how to do performance management, etc. The thing that I kept getting asked about helping people is dealing with workplace crisis, challenges in the workplace and I you know, and with that is psychological health and safety and with that is safe and respectful workplaces and with that would be, you know workplace mental health and how to deal with that is safe and respectful workplaces and with that would be, you know workplace mental health and how to deal with employees at risk and all those kind of things. And so I talked to Todd Humber and Todd and I know each other back for many, many years when I was chief of research it used to be called Morneau-Chapelle, now it's Pellis focusing workplace areas. We did some work when he was all the way back at Thompson Reuters. That's where I met him and we did some work on safe and respectful workplace and we actually Dr Mbusker and I published the documents. So I've always had a relationship with Todd around dealing with, you know, challenges in the workplace and crisis and respect and all that.
Speaker 3:So when Todd and I were recently talking about HR news Canada and HR law Canada what he's doing we just started the. We just had a chat one day. It was simply as that. We just had a chat one day and said you know what, what do we think is missing? And we conceived this idea called Crisis Ready Workplace and I had been piloting. I piloted this program that I'd developed at a couple of large organizations and then the federal government, and what we realized is that there's an opportunity. So we decided to partner and we created wwwcrisisreadyca and we created this program to help folks be ready to deal with interpersonal crisis in the workplace. Not to become experts, bill, it's just to get folks ready. And I feel and without being long winded, which I'm good at sometimes is that you take all your experience of this too right. So I've taken a lot of mental health experience and clinical practice and applied practice. So it's not a bunch of theory, it's really applied tools. We want people to have tools.
Speaker 4:Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at hrgazettecom. And now back to the show.
Speaker 2:Okay, and big shout out to Todd, we'll be sure to include you in the socials as well. So there we go, okay. So obviously, if people want to get into the the nitty-gritty, uh, the finer details, they just have to sign up. But let's start with a bit of an overview, sure, don't mind? Uh, can you, can you, can you run through? Because it's broken. The program's broken into a number of modules, of course. Maybe you can give us an overview of each of those modules and and, um, how, how, leaders can maybe integrate some of those within their decision making processes yeah, well, it's a good test for me.
Speaker 3:can I remember all eight modules? But I can tell you, I can tell you from a high level what the what, the what it is. So we have, we start the course of the course off around what I believe is your foundational information. It's helpful to understand. You know the factors that will influence and can lead to crises in the workplace or increased stress, and one of those that is going to be a factor on how effective you are in it as you.
Speaker 3:So we begin with around the individual readiness to actually deal with crisis. In other words, if someone is like, if a patient came and saw me and they had an issue and it was really, really stressful, and I reacted and stood up and started to walk around my chair and go, I can't believe. I mean, and I couldn't manage it, or I started breaking down and I and I couldn't cry, you know, which is a natural response, and but you probably want your professional to be able to manage it, because we get trained to deal with this and not that there's anything wrong with that, but you probably want me to be calm, like a heart surgeon. You don't want them to be nervous. So there's a certain amount of readiness for you to be your own self-care how you manage your own emotions, own self-care, how you manage your own emotions. And then it's important to understand what psychological safety really means in regards to the environmental factors that could be contributing to stress load, that could be antecedents, root causes that could be triggering crises, and a lot of how people are dealing with stress can create the reactivity. Then we'll cover off topics around what a trauma-informed workplace means and understand the relevance of what trauma is and how that can actually show up in the workplace and it can actually. Some people, because of traumatic responses, can actually come off as they're not caring about other human beings, but that might be them, their strategies of how they're coping.
Speaker 3:And then we'll move through and we'll talk about things about how to deal with workplace mental health issues, including impairment in the workplace. We'll talk about anger, how to deal with an employee's anger. We'll talk about how to deal with someone at risk for suicide. And one of the most important modules in my opinion in the program and I guess I have a pretty good one since I wrote it is crisis management framework a basic, simple model, for you can't prepare for every crisis, but to give a person a framework of I'm in crisis and something I've never dealt with before a six-step model to navigate it.
Speaker 3:And the goal of this whole program, bill, is not to provide people with a framework that they're going to be. They get a certificate. We have accredited this through CBD actually in the UK, cbd International, and we have CEUs and all that to give people a real credential. But we really want people to realize we're not trying to make them crisis experts. We're trying to give them tools so that they feel they can move towards challenging situations and have a sense of what they can do. And one of the things I often use is like a defibrillator on the wall. They're great that employers have them, but if employees don't know how to use them, or leaders they're really useless. So we're just trying to make sure people have tools to understand what they can do to help.
Speaker 2:And as part of this process, in terms of creating some content around the new program, in terms of trying to help educate folks, is a brand new podcast called the Workplace Mental Health Podcast with Dr Bill Howitt, and I've had the pleasure of being the interviewer for the new show. We have actually, as we record this, just wrapped up recording the first season, which is specifically focused on this, on Crisis Ready, and then there's more to come with that show. So watch this space, listeners. There'll be links to the new show, I'm sure, within the show notes here, so check that one out too on your podcast player of choice.
Speaker 2:Okay, so now I'd like to ask why is this new program timely? What I mean by that is, you know, folks can feel stresses and pressures at any time in their lives, lives, and there are a whole bunch of factors, and we've gone into many of those in the new podcast season, but what I'm talking about here actually are some of the uh newer, uh bigger contextual factors. We've got wars going going on around the world, we've got economic stresses, we've got certain politicians who are in place, who are shaking things up for other countries. These are all things that they press upon us and now in our personal lives and we take that into the workplace right and and some of those seem to be a lot bigger, maybe even existential at times, than just a few years ago.
Speaker 3:You paint a picture of that I think you actually nailed a great word. You know what an existential is is facing the potential of your own demise, and when you start thinking about it we haven't fully recovered from and pandemic. There's a, there's a lag period and you know, then things catch up. The challenge is is that for myself, as someone who works in workplace, mental health and still, you know, carries licenses to see clients and need and all that kind of stuff is it's it's helpful to keep in context what's going on. You see, we've been under a lot of stress for several years.
Speaker 3:The pandemic changed the landscape. That was a big crisis, not just for one area but for the planet. In my 60 years, that's the big one. I mean, I wasn't in Korea, I wasn't in Vietnam, but I was in Ottawa by myself during a pandemic, just moved here. So I dealt with my issues too and if I didn't have blinked, my bulldog, my trusted buddy below me, I probably would be. You know, I would have made it sure, but you didn't get my point.
Speaker 3:You come out of the pandemic and war starts and then other civil unrest starts and other war starts, and geopolitical, so there is no shortage of, you know, the interest rates, inflation, pressure. So there's been all kinds of macroeconomic stressors. So, if you think about it, why I think it's timely is what crisis really is is when people's resources are overwhelmed and a situation's outside the realm of normal or coping capacity. So if you think about it, you know crises could be. You're stressed out because you're late and someone cuts you off and someone has a reaction For that person being cut off. It's a crisis. It's a mini crisis, but some people move into road rage because they can't regulate their calm. You drop something and you'll see. And what's the point being is if your battery is really low and life is really hard and your adversity load is really heavy, your tolerance decreases. I'm finding people's tolerance is shorter now and I'm finding people are a little bit more acting out now and there's more emotion now. Violence in some areas has increased. Car thefts has increased Food insecurity, so all this stuff's happening outside workplaces.
Speaker 3:But then it comes in and there's a general stress that a lot of people are dealing with, and my sense is one of the really important things for us to keep in mind. A lot of people are dealing with and my sense is one of the really important things for us to keep in mind, to kind of land this question for you is that there is no clarity when all this is going to end, and so the unknown is another problem, and so that to me, bill, what's happening is people are under a lot of pressure now, and that pressure is going to create more emotions, could create more mental health issues, more issues. Online gambling you know, pathological online gambling has gone from three and a half in Canada up to over six now. People are looking for different ways to cope with stress, and so my belief system is the timings now, employers that have HR professionals, ohs committees, workplace mental health leaders we're wise to give people tools to get ready to deal with these situations, and if we don't give them practical tools, they don't need theory, they need practical tools like cpr, bang, bang bang, simple things that can help them move towards, to help.
Speaker 3:That's what we're trying to do, but it's a your. Your questions are big.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of stuff, man so the pandemic was very difficult for um everyone. One silver lining that at least we're talking about in 2022, 2023, a lot into 2024 as well was uh, one silver lining from the pandemic was that people were more willing to be open and vulnerable with people and and and check in with them. Use that term check in, yeah, how are you doing? How are you doing how? How are you feeling? Yeah, um, being honest about your, about where you're at in terms of your mental health, do you think? Do you think it was still there? Are we closing off again?
Speaker 3:I think I think we've had a slip. I I think it's uh, I think we, I think that I think what's happened is is we haven't figured out fully that mental health is no different than physical health, and what I mean by that is exercise, diet, rest, relaxation or what your nervous system needs for physiological health. If you don't pay attention to what you put in your gut, you're not paying attention to how that'll impact your, because your guts, were your neurotransmitters are made. That will impact how you feel. If you don't have any purpose and you don't feel good, like it's really good. Mental health is learning how to feel well. When you're feeling well, like taking care of the car, your exercise, diet, rest, relaxation that's great. But you got to know where you're driving to.
Speaker 3:And if you're going to work just for a paycheck versus purpose, or you're just trying to survive versus thrive, then there's a lot of folks are just trying to survive, so they don't have as much room. Their error is kind of your cups over full. There's a lot more people their cups almost overfilled with stress, worry, challenges and that's creating more reactivity and if we're not paying attention to the consequences of all of this stuff, it just kind of creates a ripple effect. It can impact families at home, it can impact the workplace, it can impact an employee's quality of life and experience employee's quality of life and experience and so it's interesting. You know, when I listen to myself talk about this, it's a big spider web, right? But at the end of the day, bill, I'm not convinced yet In 2025, the average CEO some do but the average CEO or leader understands that. The emotion all we're really talking about is how people feel is that we're measuring it and making it a priority and we're holding people accountable. Just be simple. As simple as this is. Just to be kind, to be civil, to have disagreements and arguments, that's fine. We all have a bad day. I'm very capable of being short too, probably like other people, but it's being mindful of what we want to aspire to be versus what we are and have guidance and support to get to where we're going. And I still think we're too busy doing and we're not paying enough attention to taking care of the like, taking care of people at enough. Where they're, they're thriving enough. I'm hearing lots of people have great activity, but they're confusing activity with outcomes. Right, I'll end with this Allopathic medicine. We've been talking about 100 years. Obesity, type 2 diabetes, cancer those things still continue to rise. So all of a sudden, now we start this conversation around workplace mental health.
Speaker 3:During the pandemic Some of it was a little bit of a fad, but I think people confuse. Well, we do that. We have EAP oh, we have benefits. That's supports. That's emergency. That's not prevention. That's not taking care of the employee experience. That's not paying attention to every interaction. That's not holding the environment accountable for what the employee experience. That's not paying attention to every interaction. That's not holding the environment accountable for what the experience is. And that's really what will matter.
Speaker 2:Just very briefly, because I want to then switch to focus more on the role of the leader. But you know, on this show we do try to offer practical takeaways for our listeners. And you are the guy to ask if I'm, if I, if I haven't got the, the training, I haven't been through a course such as crisis ready, are there still one or two things I can notice about myself? If, if I allow myself to do that, that tells me that I'm in risk of becoming mentally ill, for example?
Speaker 3:yeah, and I would use the words versus metal ill to be overwhelmed or not. Because so I'll give an example. If, if you chronically are waking up every day at 4 am in the morning, your mother, you can't sleep and your brain is running all the time. If you're not, if you're waking up every day at 4 am in the morning, you can't sleep and your brain is running all the time. If you're not, if you're losing your appetite, if you're not enjoying things like, let's say, I like playing basketball, but I'm not playing basketball, I'm sitting home, I'm isolating myself from other people, I'm spending more time alone. I'm starting my internal dialogue, which we call our parrot, starting to say your life's no good, I'm no good. It's never going to change that, because the key to good mental health is learning how to control the parrot in your head.
Speaker 3:Your brain says stuff doesn't mean it's true. You have anywhere between 30 to 60,000 thoughts a day, depending on who you read or how active your brain is. So all the things automatically generating your unconscious brain is not necessarily factual. Your frontal lobe and you have to object it. So if your thinking is, and then you're spending a lot of time emotional, or you can't sleep or you're agitated, irritable or reacting. Those are all reasonable for someone that's stressed. That doesn't necessarily mean that you have a mental illness. If I told you how many patients I've seen over my 40 years that their wife left them after 20 years, took the dog, took the money, took this, and I see them a month later and they're all stressed to the gourd and they're not working and they're not feeling good and they're all stressed to the gourd and they're. You know they're not working and they're not feeling good and they might be driven. That doesn't mean they have a mental illness. That just means they're, they're overwhelmed.
Speaker 3:And so I think what happens is we sometimes don't understand depression, anxiety are very good emotions. We serve purpose. It doesn't mean we're broken. They're really reasonable responses to how we're dealing with because they're just an emotion, right? So to answer your question, I think it's self-awareness is important. You know, like when I was teaching in graduate school, you teach abnormal psych. All of a sudden people think, start diagnosing themselves. I'm very careful. It's degree of functioning versus symptom load. It's really the world life. I don't know why we have it in our society. Maybe you might have some wisdom. I'm from Canada and you live over in the UK, you might have a different perspective, but somehow in my culture where I live, I think sometimes we have a bias that things are supposed to be good all the time, Versus if I look in an Eastern culture where they accept unpleasant emotion. Misery is a part of the human condition and I think sometimes we haven't taught people that life's hard and you're going to spend some time in unpleasant emotions and that doesn't mean your life sucks.
Speaker 2:But I'm not sure many people got that lesson built, so we're running away from emotions a lot okay, uh, now I want to talk about leaders, as I suggested I would do earlier on um, and specifically the, the kpis, or, in fact, the key performance behaviors. But what are some of those key performance behaviors of trusted leaders during a crisis, and how can hr and employee well-being professionals help to develop those behaviors?
Speaker 3:yeah. So it's interesting. One of the things I've been doing, bill, is, I mean, actually I created a program called trusted leader and one of the things we teach in the trusted leader is very specific behaviors called foundational behaviors, daily behaviors and on-demand behaviors, and one of the one of the one of the really really good on sorry foundational behaviors for building trust that can help in dealing with challenging situations or conflict is creating an environment where it's okay for employees to have a point of view or even to debate with you. So one of the key performance behaviors I teach in that is, for example, if you were my direct report and we're just getting to know each other, I'd say okay, bill, so there's going to be times where you and I are going to have debates or even arguments. So how do you want to argue? And Bill might go well, what do you mean? I said well, we're going to have arguments, we're going to have passionate debates. How do you want to do it? Because if we really both care, we're going to have to learn how to actually have differences of opinion. Now, what's important is, when we have difference of opinion, we've got all these neurochemicals, all this emotion wanting.
Speaker 3:Some of us want to win, but the reality is a debate about winning or is a debate about learning. Is a debate about winning or is a debate about learning? Where do you want to start from? Because a possibility is I could be wrong. See, a good leader has the humility to know. Just because they have a thought doesn't mean it's always facts or they're always right. That's where it takes some humility why you think about. You know great people, that you know great writers. You know you know Jim Collins good to great. You know humility number one attribute, for you know great leaders. So if you start thinking about it, that's a skill. And then who gets to start the argument? Well, are you just the leader or is it the employee comes to start and then the employee asks how do you want to argue? And you'd start to learn how to practice to have interpersonal dances. That could be from giving feedback.
Speaker 3:Arguing and feedback are different than correcting behavior, like if bill is my direct report and he really, really cares about me and I have some implicit bias and I actually said something that may be colloquial or or a colonial term or something I was outside my level of awareness. That oppresses someone else. Bill really cares about me and we have a trusted relationship. Bill will come up to me and say, bill, I'm not, are you aware of what you just did? And go. What was that? And I go. You just said this and this and for that person that could probably mean this, I recommend not. Well, he just corrected my behavior and defending it. That's not really the point. If I have a trusted relationship, so that can help us navigate things quickly, so we can move through it. Now, is it always smooth and easy? No, but it's getting that foundation in place will help you when, during the hard times, I find too many people just kind of have a fake dance and they don't have an authentic dance.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about the legals. What are the legal obligations of employers when it comes to creating a safe and respectful workplace? You know, forget everything else for a moment. From a legal perspective, what? Why do companies need to take this more seriously?
Speaker 3:yeah, it depends where you're at. Most states, provinces, countries that are in our world, like the uk or canada, etc. There are going to be some requirements that employers have a duty to protect workers and so far in canada I'll speak to that because where I'm at the province of Ontario every employer under the occupational health and safety would have a certain obligation around creating a physical safe place as well as protecting employees from bullying, harassment, as well, under human rights, protecting them them from discrimination. So employers now are becoming clearer on their obligation to protect employees. But what's also really important is some countries are going to another level.
Speaker 3:If you look where Australia is very progressive, they're starting to look at the environment from psychosocial factors that could be contributing to employee stress and putting obligation that employers measure what those factors are and if those factors are becoming hazards. So one way to think about it think about work demand If it's okay, it could be a charge, and if it's not and it's overwhelming, it could become a drain. And if that's starting to create harm, that's moving to people to like burnout or fear or other things that are creating harm to themselves or others, and if a employer doesn't do something, there could be some responsibilities starting to see some you know more legal action happening around that and more conversation. So what's happening? I would say, some, you know more legal action happening around that and more conversation. So what's happening? I would say, you know, I'm going to call you know a kind of a western north american. There's obligations that employers now the the teeth that the does the employer follow through. That's starting. That's a learning curve too.
Speaker 3:So you, so you can have policies and you get an obligation, but you also have to have the teeth where you're following through with consequences if you don't. So the government can create a policy to saying, hey, you have a, you have to. Employees have a right to disconnect from work, but if no one's enforcing it, then that can actually become a harm to employees. So employers are yes, they're getting responsibilities. There's a regulatory piece where you can be held accountable, but I also think there's also employers are starting to. There's a three-legged stool happening. It's regulatory accountability, there's a financial business case and it's also maximizing human potential. You want people to perform and you want them to learn and grow. It's like a lawn you got to water it, you got to take care of it some, or it's not going to flourish. So I think there's more movement, what employers are taking on as obligations and then taking on as opportunity in this conversation, and I find that it's not all just one now too oh, I like that.
Speaker 2:Obligations and opportunities, I like that. Uh, okay. So Imagine you've got an organization and leadership are bought in to the fact that they need to have the training to be crisis ready. Great, they get it. But what are some of the challenges that those organizations might face when trying to implement trauma informed practices and how can they overcome them?
Speaker 3:trauma-informed practices and how can they overcome them? Well, I think it's like anything it's you, it's there's awareness, accountability and action, regardless of what you're doing. So, you know, getting a concept, becoming aware of it. You, first of all, you need to know why, then you need to understand whether it's trauma-informed or anything. What can you do and how do you do it? And I think what happens is it's not only giving people the information, the knowledge and the skills which we do in Crisis Ready Workplace, but it's also, I think, a big barrier is giving people time to practice.
Speaker 3:If you think about it, occupational health and safety many organizations will have a safety moment or safety tip, or they'll do audits, they'll do reviews, they'll do check-ins, because they know that you know it's important to make sure the lineman that's going up the pole or woman or other, that they have their helmet and gear and everything safe, that they have their helmet and gear and everything safe. Well, they do that. Well, what do we do too often in psych safety or workplace mental health? Well, we did an assessment or we went to a program where our leaders were trained. What's often a barrier to success is building in measurement and time for practice and excellence in my mind requires repetition, practice measurement, time for practice, and excellence in my mind requires repetition, practice measurement and habit development.
Speaker 3:And unfortunately this is not a B12 shot, whatever you're trying to give someone. Oh, I go to a beautiful, you know one day workshop on trauma-informed workplace. That's good, but if you don't correct for the forgetting curve by next Thursday, a week later, 85% of it's gone Because there's so much information and there's so much to learn. I'm so how do I put this? I'm so pro-training and development, I think it's so important, but I'm so concerned for some of my big clients that they don't build in their budget the training piece and the practice piece, so they lose millions of dollars. If you look at a bunch of organizations just doing almost a compliance check the box versus what's our competency-based model, and I think that's what really more employers want. They want the competency, not just the activity.
Speaker 2:Well, fortunately, my understanding is that the Crisis Ready content is recorded, so if you are forgetting 85% after a week, you can go back and have another look once you've signed up. There we go, dr Bill. Before we wrap up for today, how can our listeners connect with you and, of course, how can they learn more about the new Crisis Ready program?
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks very much, bill. Wwwcrisisreadyca the course is Crisis Ready Workplaces. You can look at HR News Canada, where you'll find Todd's good work, or HR Law Canada, as well as wwwhowardhrcom.
Speaker 2:And in addition to that, I will include a link to the new podcast with Bill and Bill the Two Bills, and so you can listen to that too and learn even more Dr Bill the two Bills. And then so you can, you can, you can listen to that too and learn even more Dr Bill. I think this is like the third or fourth time you've been on this show now. It's always a pleasure, so thank you very much for being my guest and listeners. Until next time, Happy working.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the HR chat show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work? Subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom.
