HRchat Podcast
Listen to the HRchat Podcast by HR Gazette to get insights and tips from HR leaders, influencers and tech experts. Topics covered include HR Tech, HR, AI, Leadership, Talent, Recruitment, Employee Engagement, Recognition, Wellness, DEI, and Company Culture.
Hosted by Bill Banham, Bob Goodwin, Pauline James, and other HR enthusiasts, the HRchat show publishes interviews with influencers, leaders, analysts, and those in the HR trenches 2-4 times each week.
The show is approaching 1000 episodes and past guests are from organizations including ADP, SAP, Ceridian, IBM, UPS, Deloitte Consulting LLP, Simon Sinek Inc, NASA, Gartner, SHRM, Government of Canada, Hacking HR, McLean & Company, UPS, Microsoft, Shopify, DisruptHR, McKinsey and Co, Virgin Pulse, Salesforce, Make-A-Wish Foundation, and Coca-Cola Beverages Company.
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Podcast Music Credit"Funky One"Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
HRchat Podcast
Embracing AI and Reducing Bias with Torin Ellis
Ever wondered how AI can transform HR practices? Get ready to explore its potential to revolutionize employee communication and personalized learning and development.
In this HRchat episode, Bill Banmham welcomes back the dynamic Torin Ellis.
Listen as Torin shares insights from his co-authored report, "Reducing Bias in HR Using Artificial Intelligence," revealing both the triumphs and hesitations organizations face as they journey towards AI adoption. Discover how even small steps toward embracing AI can lead to significant enhancements in HR processes and boost employee engagement.
Our conversation takes a dive into ethical AI implementation, especially in hiring, through our collaboration with Plum. Learn how their AI-driven tools are reshaping recruitment by reducing bias and ensuring fairness. We stress the importance of human oversight and the integration of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging into AI solutions. With shifting governmental attitudes towards DEIB, we explore why adopting a thoughtful approach is crucial. As we wrap up, we share insights on balancing professional and personal interactions, sprinkled with plans for an upcoming networking trip to Las Vegas. Don’t miss out on this episode packed with practical and forward-thinking strategies!
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Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit HRGazettecom and visit hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. Hello listeners, this is your host today, bill Bannam, and joining me back on the show after far too long is the amazing, awesome, wonderful Torin. Ellis and Torin and I will be talking today about AI and its impact on HR. We'll also be talking a bit about DEI and probably a few more things as well, torin. Welcome back to the show. How are you, my friend?
Speaker 3:It has been a long time, but I'm doing wonderful and I appreciate you providing me with a bit of space to enjoy yourself, your audience and, let's say, the rest of what 2025 has to offer.
Speaker 2:Well, it's a privilege to get you back on the show. We we got a couple of minutes together there at hr tech in vegas, uh, towards the end of 2024, but it's nice to get a bit more face time with you. Uh, let's, let's, uh, let's get straight into it. What I'm going to do is I'm going to direct our listeners here. Please check out the previous episodes we've done with tauren uh, to get a bit more on Torin's background, his career background and whatnot. And that then leaves us with a couple more minutes for today's show to get straight into the meat of the conversation. So, torin, my first question for you today is how has AI integration transformed traditional HR practices in the recent years?
Speaker 3:traditional HR practices in the recent years. Well, in terms of, you know, transforming, I think that's still out for question and deliberation. I think a lot of organizations are still trying to figure out how, in fact, do we implement AI solutions? We know that they are there. We hear all of this talk about the efficacy and efficiency that it can bring, the scale and the ability to free us up from some of that mundane and move into more higher order operations and tasks and responsibilities, but I'm not sure that AI has completely transformed HR organizations, which is part of the reason why we wrote the report.
Speaker 3:What we did, bill, is we wanted to take a positive approach because we wanted to draw people in. We really wanted people to say you know what? The curiosity is enough for us to strike a bit of a match. Let's read the 7,500 plus words that Torrin and Aptitude put together and let's find something that we can tackle that would make our organization a little bit different. And so what I suggest to people? Thank you for the question. What I suggest is, you know, just find one action that you can take Query individuals on your team. Find people that are in talent acquisition, find people that are employer branding or in corporate communications, work with people that are in your philanthropic efforts, employee engagement. Ask them how can we be a bit more efficient, and then go out to the marketplace and see if there's an AI solution that will help you in that process.
Speaker 2:Okay, very good, thank you very much. And the report that Torin just referenced there was in partnership with Plum and also Aptitude Research, thank you, and it's called Reducing Bias in HR Using Artificial Intelligence. So let's get into that now. Actually, let's dive into that more now. What are some of those key findings, torin, from the report?
Speaker 3:Yeah, what we notice is that, first and foremost, organizations that have deployed AI solutions are seeing a great deal of efficiency in how they're curating their employee slates, if you will, slates, if you will. We're seeing organizations that are being far more efficient in making sure that they have consistent communication with their applicants. You know, so many applicants are fighting that dark hole and feeling like they've been ghosted. Organizations have seen a great deal more. We are seeing organizations that are teetering on the brink of discovery around. How can we create learning and development solutions and benefit solutions that are a bit more fine-tuned and, let's say what's the word that I'm looking for customized for the individual. And, bill, what I can tell you is that if you are a person who's inside of an organization and from the very moment that you began the onboarding process to getting your badge and your computer and sitting in on day number one and day number 90 in the first year and the second year, I can tell you that if you are an individual that is transitioning through that journey as an employee and things feel more customized, more ready-made, more tailor-made for you, that you are an employee that is probably going to be far more engaged. You're going to be far more productive and you're going to remain with that organization for an extended period of time. And so I say all of that to say organizations that have deployed AI are seeing a positive return.
Speaker 3:Here's the other thing that we found. We found that organizations are also sitting on the sideline because they're still exploring how can we get to the ROI that we're looking for. Yes, we went out and we made this investment. We purchased this new solution. It was shiny the salesperson or the team, or we saw some marketing slick or something but we made the decision to invest. Now we're simply trying to determine how do we measure what that value proposition looks like for the organization. So I think that you know two things that were revealed in the report for us. Number one, there are a lot of organizations and entities individuals that are happy with their decision. And number two, that there are a number of individuals that are sitting on the sideline trying to see whether or not that decision is going to return the value that they were looking for.
Speaker 5:Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2:And now back to the show report considers ways that AI can act as an ally in dismantling bias within HR processes, when it's implemented in the right ways. I don't know about you, but I still struggle with the idea that AI can be without bias. I think there are biases still inherently within a lot of these AI technologies, just because it's built by humans at the the start of it. Right, but they were with their own biases. What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 3:well, I agree with you and again, that's why I am stressing that we took a positive approach and, bill, it wasn't an irresponsible approach. I'm I've been committed to the diversity and inclusion space for more than 15 years and so I've recognized have to the diversity and inclusion space for more than 15 years and so I've recognized have long recognized that this technology, this solution, it can be problematic. It still is in some ways problematic, and so that's the reason why we were very, very intentional when we chose the word reducing, because we didn't want people to feel like we took the position that AI is going to eliminate bias. We were very, very intentional in the reducing of bias. Let me give you an example.
Speaker 3:Plum is our collaboration partner. We really, really appreciate and value the support and the solution that they have. Here's one of the ways that I know that it works. You know Plum provides individuals, you know, with an opportunity to showcase their unique skills and strengths and potential, and you can do that through their mini assessment in ways that you can't necessarily do that through showing or submitting just a resume. And so what we know is that when you can leverage the solution in a way that allows an individual to unfold like a flower beautifully in front of this hiring manager, that we place candidates, we place talent in a position where, hopefully, that bias you know, even that indirect bias, that hidden, that unknown bias it is suppressed, if you will, and that the beauty of what an individual can offer, the value that an individual can offer, is displayed through that assessment process. So we know that the solutions work.
Speaker 3:It just requires that, as organizations are making the decision to deploy the technology, that they are really, really thoughtful. What is it that we want the solution to do? How are we going to measure the value? Who is a part of this decision-making process? Where is the data coming from that was used to train this particular solution? All of these components are important, so we just don't want people to run out and grab AI solutions, but we do want them to be extremely thoughtful. We also don't want them to be reticent. We want them to participate, because this training is moving rapidly up the track.
Speaker 4:Once in a while, an event series is born that shakes things up, it makes you think differently and it leaves you inspired. That event is Disrupt HR. The format is 14 speakers, 5 minutes each and slides rotate every 15 seconds. If you're an HR professional, a CEO, a technologist or a community leader and you've got something to say about talent, culture or technology, disrupt is the place. It's coming soon to a city near you. Learn more at disrupthrco.
Speaker 2:Okay, so follow up to that one, then. What is the role of human oversight when it comes to deploying AI, particularly in sensitive areas like hiring and promotions? Spell it out for me, torin. Where do the humans still fit in to make sure that common sense prevails, that biases are kept to a minimum?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I mean, common sense absolutely prevails, and the human, to me, should be involved in the entire process. You know that's what human-centered AI looks like to me. Responsible AI is developing, using and deploying AI systems that are ethical, that are technically proficient and, of course, build that are beneficial to society. If, in fact, we keep the human in the process, we should be able to address those ethical concerns. We should be looking at and exploring the business risks. We should also be looking at data protection, security, transparency, regulatory compliance. All of that is important.
Speaker 3:And listen, as efficient as AI is, as quick as it is able to move, and all of the things that we…we've got to make sure that we keep the human in the process, and so I don't want AI to make decisions for me per se. I want to be involved in the decision-making and I want to go back to something that I said in the beginning I want AI to be a complement to the beautiful work that I do. Listen, I don't believe that AI is going to have the nuance of understanding you and I's eye movement and our charisma, our back and forth right here on the screen as we're recording, and so that we got to keep the human in the process, and so I want to absolutely make sure that I put a really firm flag in the ground of how we are standing behind ethical layoffs.
Speaker 2:Okay, so on this show, we like to leave our listeners with some practical tips, insights, things that they can actually implement in their job today or tomorrow. Therefore, how can organizations measure the impacts of AI on DEIB outcomes in the workplace? What are some practical applications there?
Speaker 3:outcomes in the workplace. What are some practical applications there? So the first thing that I would say I want to go back to the report, and naturally, individuals are going to download it and read it, but that was one of the disappointments for us. One of the disappointments inside of such was that individuals were making decisions to purchase AI solutions and considerations around diversity and inclusion were not a part of that agenda. They didn't ask questions, they didn't have metrics around D&I as part of the component for evaluating the AI solution.
Speaker 3:So the first thing that I would ask of all of your listeners is that you have, in my opinion, you have a responsibility to have a question set that says how is this going to impact every employee in our organization? So I want people to make sure that they are reducing their fears around AI. Just know that AI can help bolster human decision-making. It can enrich interactions. It can absolutely drive meaningful outcomes. If you are asking the right questions, how is this going to return some value in our organization? And then I think the third thing that we can absolutely make sure that people do is focus on diminishing the threats to privacy and security. Absolutely make sure that people do is focus on diminishing the threats to privacy and security. Make sure that you have a solid, robust team of individuals that are helping you make the decision to bring AI into your organization, so that you are protecting your employees in terms of how they are thinking about sharing information, sharing data, interacting with these different systems that are out there.
Speaker 2:That's quite interesting and I wonder if part of the reason why those DIB considerations were not included were because of this change that we're seeing within many companies now at the government level since the Trump administration has come back into power, and this general sea change away from the IB language and programs. Maybe I don't know. I'm just the interview here, but just in follow up to that. Then yeah, in more, in more general.
Speaker 3:Sorry, go ahead, yeah no, I was just going to say the soft maybe, but I think the bigger reason why D&I concerns were not a part of the consideration is because I don't believe that we have a broad enough team of individuals, a broad enough perspective of thought, as we are going out and exploring these solutions. We got some really smart people that are making these buying decisions, that are part of these exploratory committees, but before we go out to the marketplace and explore, are we internally collating enough incredible minds to say what is it that we are trying to accomplish? So, rather than it being political and social change that's happening, I think it's more of a function of internally, we haven't been thoughtful enough about how we are, how we're making all of our decisions. So this is just one where I think that we should be tapping people and saying you know who's missing from this conversation and you know, from an inclusion standpoint, what do we need to make sure the solution does, so that we make every individual feel like they belong.
Speaker 2:OK, very good, we are going to wrap up this conversation in just a moment. We are going to wrap up this conversation in just a moment. Before we do that, torin, how can our listeners download the reports Reducing Bias in HR, using Artificial Intelligence by Plum, by you and by Aptitude? If you could maybe point us in the direction of how folks can do that Also, listeners, there will be a link in the show notes so you can check it out there. And Torin, just more generally, you are a wonderful busy man. You're all over the place, attending lots of events, speaking all over the place, doing lots of cool things, collaborating loads of awesome organizations. How can folks even hope to try and keep up with all the excellent things that you get up to?
Speaker 3:yeah, absolutely so. In order to get the report, you can go to plumio, and I'm sure they have a link on their home page. But in order to get in report, you can go to Plumio, and I'm sure they have a link on their homepage. But in order to get in touch with me, I'm at Torrin Ellis, or across all of social media at Torrin Ellis Website, torrinelliscom, across all of social media at Torrin Ellis. And that's one R Bill. So many people still, even at my age, so many people still put two r's in my name. It's just one torren ellis, and I thank you again torren ellis with one r.
Speaker 2:I hope to see you soon, uh, and any events coming up to you, for you, in the next couple of months. We're recording this interview towards the end of jan. I'm currently thinking about attending transform in vegas. There's a show I'm talent a week later in nashville. I'm thinking about doing a road trip and going to go to that one too. Uh, what are the events coming up for you in the next few months that maybe people can see you at? Torrent?
Speaker 3:yeah, man, I have a couple of, uh private events with organizations. I'm going to be speaking that I'm going to be doing something with strava. I can say that one out loud. The other couple, uh, we're trying to keep them under wraps, if you will. I'm going to do an event with um samara and team at transform, so I should be in vegas, uh, in march. So you know, even though we are um dealing with a bit of a headwind, we're still working good, man.
Speaker 2:Well, if I get around to booking my tickets to vegas, I will see you there, sir, and I will grab you for a drink, but for now, that just leaves me to say Torin, my friend, thank you very much for being my guest today.
Speaker 3:You know, I appreciate you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, bill, and listeners as always, until next time. Happy working.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work? Subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom.
