HRchat Podcast
Listen to the HRchat Podcast by HR Gazette to get insights and tips from HR leaders, influencers and tech experts. Topics covered include HR Tech, HR, AI, Leadership, Talent, Recruitment, Employee Engagement, Recognition, Wellness, DEI, and Company Culture.
Hosted by Bill Banham, Bob Goodwin, Pauline James, and other HR enthusiasts, the HRchat show publishes interviews with influencers, leaders, analysts, and those in the HR trenches 2-4 times each week.
The show is approaching 1000 episodes and past guests are from organizations including ADP, SAP, Ceridian, IBM, UPS, Deloitte Consulting LLP, Simon Sinek Inc, NASA, Gartner, SHRM, Government of Canada, Hacking HR, McLean & Company, UPS, Microsoft, Shopify, DisruptHR, McKinsey and Co, Virgin Pulse, Salesforce, Make-A-Wish Foundation, and Coca-Cola Beverages Company.
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Podcast Music Credit"Funky One"Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
HRchat Podcast
Reimagining Workplace Dynamics with Behavioral Science with Nigel Gracie
What happens when a professional actor turns the spotlight onto the HR assessment industry? Meet Nigel Gracie, Business Development Director for Europe and Africa at Harrison Assessments International, as he shares his fascinating career pivot and the groundbreaking work of Dr. Harrison.
Tune in for a a fresh perspective on how behavioral assessments can amp up employee productivity and profitability, and why the fusion of eligibility and suitability is crucial for job performance. Nigel's passion for working with visionary leaders will inspire you to consider the profound impact of leadership that both challenges and motivates.
We journey through the intricate landscape of behavioral traits and paradoxical behaviors, revealing why understanding these nuances can shape a thriving company culture. Learn about the art of balancing optimism with realism, and how these insights can enhance influence within your organization. Our discussion on employee engagement emphasizes the power of valuing opinions and tailoring initiatives to boost business outcomes.
As we explore Harrison's innovative business model and look forward to Nigel's participation in Disrupt HR events, this episode offers valuable insights for those eager to transform their workplace dynamics!
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Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. Hello listeners, this is your host today, Bill Bannam, and joining me on the show today is Nigel Gracie, Business Development Director Europe and Africa Business at Harrison Assessment International, a company providing employee assessment tools. The tools are designed to help managers throughout the entire HR process so that they become more productive and efficient, leading to increased profitability. Nigel, welcome to the show today.
Speaker 3:Thank you, bill, delighted to be here.
Speaker 2:So we'll be on my reintroduction just now. Nigel, why don't you start by taking a minute or two and telling our listeners a bit about your career background, some of your loves and what you get up to at your current role?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so for the last 20 years I've partnered with HR functions, learning and development functions, and I've brought some of the best products and solutions on the market. So you name it training, consulting, 360s, coaching, other psychometrics pretty much you name it. I've either sold it myself or I've led the sales function Selling it. Before that I can't remember if I shared this with you I spent about eight, nine years treading the boards as a professional actor, which was something I always wanted to do as a kid, so I'm very glad I got the chance to do that. But you kind of get to an age where you realize a bit more security in your life is required, so yeah, so that brings us to Harrison.
Speaker 3:As we said, we're a global psychometric test publisher. I'm responsible for Europe and Africa. So I work primarily with our channel training companies, hr consultancies, management consultancies, exec coaches who add our solutions to the suite of products and solutions that they offer their customers. So I'm accountable for everything that happens, but obviously, with my background, a lot of what I do is the commercial side of it selling it, help supporting business development, all those kind of exciting things. And, as you know, I'm off to Ghana to spend the week in February with our distributor there. So another country I haven't been to, so I'm very looking forward to that.
Speaker 4:The HR Chat Podcast is one of the world's most popular shows, offering insights and tips from HR pros, business leaders, industry influencers and tech experts World of Work. Topics covered include HR tech, ai, leadership, talent, recruitment, employee engagement, wellness, dei and company culture. The show, produced by the award-winning HR Gazette, has released over 700 episodes so far, each offering fresh perspectives and tips to help you better understand the changing future of work. Check out the latest HR chat episodes on your podcast platform of choice and read the latest articles at hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2:Very good. Okay, I didn't know that about you. I have so many questions. I'd very much like to turn this episode now in a completely different direction and ask you those questions about your nine years as a thespian, sir. However, our audience are HR professionals and similar, so I guess we should continue down that route instead, although one thing I do want to pick up from what you just said. There is near the start of your answer. You said you know, uh, for a long time I've been involved in providing the best solutions that you were you used the word the best. Now, interesting. I was on the harrison assessment website earlier today and it also uses quite bold language and it's boilerplate. There. It says the company focuses on providing the most trusted and accurate employee assessment tools in the industry. Now, harrison assessments have been around since 1990, so there's no new kid on the block. Nevertheless, that's a heck of an assertion. It certainly is. Talk to me a bit about why you guys boldly say that where you sit in the landscape.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we have a behavioral-based assessment tool built on our research that, in a nutshell, says if people spend 75% or more of their time at work doing the behaviors they most enjoy, they are 300% to 400% more likely to be successful. Because there's no such thing as natural talent Enough studies out there, even geniuses like Mozart, whether it's the 10,000 hours or the 30,000 hours or the 50,000 hours or whatever the actual number is. The only way we as human beings get good at anything is by repetition. We get good because we practice it. Well, we're more likely to practice something if we enjoy that behavior. So everything for us comes back to behavior. So that's how we can boldly make some big make, uh, some big claims.
Speaker 3:Our, our ceo, our founder because we're still a family-owned business dr harrison um, I was on a he's he's american, but based in thailand, so I was on a call with him at 3am this morning. Fortunately, I only have to do one of those a month. Um, yeah, absolute genius, double phd psychology and mathematics. So, yeah, a lot of the credit goes to go to him and his amazing research that he's done into the topic of performance, because that's what we're interested in. What are the behavioral drivers of performance?
Speaker 2:You just said there, Dr Harrison is brilliant. I think you said that you used the word brilliant. What does that mean to a team? What kind of inspiration does that offer? What does that add to your motivations when you genuinely believe in your leader?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think it's critical Speaking, obviously, like I'm sure all your listeners a lot of them are going to be leaders, but they've all got leaders as well having someone who you can aspire, who you you aspire to, someone who challenges you. You know I'm pretty seasoned, both professionally and you know I've got I'm not in my first flush of youth, so yeah, that that challenge that comes with it is. But also I think it comes both way on a trust level. You know that said, you know dr Harrison, when I joined he said to what he said to me Nigel, go off and do that. We've hired you to do the job because we, we know you can do it. Um, so there's a high level of trust as well. Obviously, there's a certain level where I have to refer up, particularly if I want to spend ten thousand dollars but I want to spend a smaller amount. I can. I've, I'm trusted to go off and do stuff, and that my judgment. You know why do you want to do something? Well, because I want to do it, because I think it's the right thing to do. So that's quite inspiring as well and I'm a great believer in it, something I've learned across my career around trust and, as you know, I used to work for Franklin Covey and one of their methodologies is called the speed of trust.
Speaker 3:Trust I don't believe in. Trust is earned. I believe. No, I'm going to trust you. That's my starting point. Until you give me a reason to mistrust you, I'm going to start from a position of trust. Now don't get me wrong. If I know you haven't passed your driving test, I'm not going to loan you my car, so you know I'm not going to be stupid about it. But nevertheless, my default position is from an element of trust. As I said, until you give me a reason not to. And as a younger man particularly, I remember in, you know, my first sort of leadership role a long time ago I won't say the business, but a lot a long time ago. I remember a CEO at that business criticizing me for that, saying you're being naive. And as a younger man perhaps I didn't have that confidence to stand up and believe in what I thought. I trusted what I was being told. But now I think you know what. I was right all along.
Speaker 2:That is very interesting. You've got me now thinking about how I approach my relationships. I don't know if I fully understand the concept of coming from a place of trust straight away. I mean, I like to try and see the good in everybody when I, when I first meet them, yeah, collaboratively, you know. I mean I try, I try and be a collaborator and do things with people right, um, but I don't know if that's the same thing, um. But I do wonder, you know, as someone sometimes is, I I admittedly sometimes I get paralysed by indecision. That happens, I wonder, for someone who's coming from a perspective of having established trust straight up until they're proven wrong, are you more likely to make bolder decisions?
Speaker 3:Now that's an interesting question. I'm not sure you're necessarily likely to make bolder decisions. I think you're necessarily likely to make bolder decisions. I think you're more likely to make quicker decisions, assuming the best of people and again, this is of people, I'm not saying situations and again, I'm not talking about being naive and reckless. But I think, yeah, I think, that the decision-making when it comes to people is quicker. As I said, you start from that position of until you give me a reason not to, I'm going to trust you okay, we're going all sorts of directions here, but this is a good conversation, so I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Um, let's talk a bit more specifically about, uh, harrison assessment. Yep, don't mind.
Speaker 3:Talk to me a bit about harrison's approach to talent acquisition yeah, um, for us, as insightful as our tools are and we measure 175 different behavioral traits and preferences, so it's really putting people under the microscope. It goes to a depth that not many other assessment providers can go to when it comes to assessing people as insightful and as interesting, as valuable that is. When it comes to talent acquisition, the value to the company is always in what am I comparing that person to? What does good look like specifically for that job, and how does the candidates compare to that? We break stuff into two categories. We call it eligibility and suitability. Eligibility is all about can you do the job? Have you got the skill set? Have you got the knowledge, the experience, the references, the hard competencies, which quite often are reasonably easy to measure. Have you got an accountancy qualification? Well, there you go, I've got the certificate. There you go, I've got it. So very, very important, but not predictor of performance, because if you don't have those skills and knowledge, you've got no chance of doing the job. So that's number one, that's eligibility. And then for us it's suitability. That's the behaviour. Have you got the? Do you enjoy the behaviours? Have you got the interests in the sorts of tasks that that role is involving and, as I said, we actually measure our distribution at 175, but of course not all 175 are going to be relevant for every single job.
Speaker 3:Our research indicates that normally there's somewhere between 30 and 45 behavioural traits that drive performance in any particular job. We break them into three categories. Essential traits must haves High is better. Based on our research, there's a correlation between high scores of that behaviour and high performance in people who do that job. Desirable traits there isn't a correlation between high scores and high performance. There't a correlation between high schools and high performance. There is a correlation between low schools and low performance. So with the essential traits, high schools drive performance. With the desirable traits, low schools can hinder performance. And then traits to avoid these are behaviors that will actively derail performance. There is a negative correlation between high schools in that behavior and low performance in that job. Now, this is what really struck me when I've worked in previous companies where I've had direct teams that I've run rather than channel, so I've actually had sales reps who report to me.
Speaker 3:Optimism was both a blessing and a curse, because in sales you do need to be optimistic. Because you do have to, because sales typically is up and down. It is rollercoaster. Even the best sales reps closed one in three deals. So you're actually going to lose more than you win. So you've got to be optimistic, you've got to be a glass half full kind of a person. But too much optimism is also a problem and in Harrison language we call that blindly optimistic. And they're the reps that are telling you yeah, every deal is going to close. Oh, I had a wonderful meeting, it was absolutely fantastic. Oh, they're going to spend a fortune with us over the years. And then you and then it doesn't happen. And there's lots and lots of stats in in sales world about the number of uh opportunities, of opportunities that are put in the forecasters closing that never actually close. So, like I said, 10 to 15 in each group, 30 to 45 behavioral traits, but of course, which 30 to 45 is going to change completely from job to job to job.
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Speaker 2:Learn more at disrupthrco. I now want to test you in terms of. I want to get a summary from you, but I'm going to challenge you to answer in 90 seconds or less. So this is the test. Can you, for our listeners, explain your methodology in terms of paradoxical behaviors?
Speaker 3:I've worked for other assessment providers. I'm familiar with a lot of the assessments in our industry, so I love paradoxical behaviors. Paradoxical behaviors Our research has identified 24 of the 175 that we call paradoxical, in that you cannot class those behaviors as genuine strengths unless they are balanced by their paradoxical opposite behavior. Now, we didn't invent this concept. Aristotle talks about it in ancient Greece, daniel Goldman talks about it in his emotional intelligence books, but we've worked out how how to measure it. So the one I was just talking about, optimism Optimism is a paradoxical behavior If you're all optimistic without its opposite. That's where you become blindly optimistic. Analyzing pitfalls is its opposite If you're strong in both traits. In the Harrison world we call that realistic optimism. So, like I said, not all behaviors are paradoxical, but the ones that are and we also sometimes talk about this is where a strength cannot be a strength If you're high in one of the traits but you're low in the other one. I think that was 60 seconds, yeah, 60 seconds.
Speaker 2:I gave you 90. That was pretty good, okay, and that was I. Yeah, 60. I gave you 90. That was pretty good, okay, and that was. I'm sitting here listening, I'm like, okay, yeah, that's very clear, got it Tick. Good work, good work, okay.
Speaker 2:So, as I often do on this show, ahead of having a chit chat with someone, I go onto their social medias, specifically LinkedIn, because we're business dudes, um, and uh, see what they're chatting about most recently, and then maybe ask them a question or two about that, and I've done exactly that here. Uh, so the first one you. You recently shared a post about mastering the art of influencing to elevate your opinions, which is an area that you guys help with at harrison, of course, um. So my question there for you is um, in your opinion, in your experience, is influencing another way of saying being heard, because this concept of being heard is something that comes up on this show time and time again and also being in safe spaces, and personally I'm all for that. I think that should be part of most company cultures, or actually, is this term something else? And how do you achieve influencing people, being an influencer yourself within your organization? What was your experience?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's a really interesting conversation around. Yeah, you know, there's being heard and there's influencing, and I personally I do see them. They are two different things. Yeah, there's a link. Different things. Yeah, there's a link. I think it's going to be a big challenge to influence if you're not heard, but you don't necessarily need to be trying to influence to be heard.
Speaker 3:One of the one of the things um on our research around employee engagement is one of the a big thing that drives employee engagement is having your opinions valued does, and that doesn't necessarily mean people are going to agree with them, but they value your, your input. What I would say, when it comes to more that influencing obviously, as a pretty say, seasoned sales professional, influencing is really important. I like to think I, I've, I've got some ability. Yeah, start small. Don't try and change the world or try and change everything in the first. Go, get good at it. As I said before, we get good at stuff because we practice. So find simple little ways that you can have an influence. Get used to having that conversation. Be clear, be concise, listen that you can have an influence. Get used to having that conversation. Be clear, be concise, listen.
Speaker 3:One of the things that I would say and I've said this to, to to other hr professionals if you're trying to influence the c-suite, if you're trying to influence your execs because you've, you want to do a leadership program or employee engagement or whatever it is the stuff that obviously lots of HR and L&D people do is learn to talk the language of the C-suite, because they're interested in revenue, they're interested in EBITDA, they're interested in client acquisition, they're interested in client retention. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a great believer in all that great stuff that hr and lnd does, empowers, those things. But don't talk about, oh, we're gonna have, we're gonna have a, uh, employee engagement initiative. No, this is how, by having a highly engaged people will drive revenue, because highly engaged people work harder. So, yeah, link it to what's important to your audience, which, as I said, if it's the C-suite, no-transcript.
Speaker 2:So part of it is about understanding your audience, so to speak, and appreciating the language that you should be using in that context. A hundred percent. Yes, okay, very good, I continue to follow along. So another tick, thank you very much. Your CEO, nigel, wrote a blog called why Everything you Think you Know About Employee Engagement Is Wrong. Called why everything you think you know about employee engagement is wrong. What did you mean by that? And, uh, I'm going to challenge you to tell me in 60 seconds or less in 60 seconds or less.
Speaker 3:Right? I love, I love, I love a controversial topic and I, as as you know, I spoke about this at one of the disrupt hrs um in the you, here in the uk, we've spoken about employee engagement for 20 years and it's going down, it's not going up. So something is wrong and that's that's. That's the argument we're trying to try trying to post. For us, it is starts with it, what we said before about spending most of your time doing the behaviors you most enjoy, because, a you're most likely to be good at them and, b you're going to be really frustrated if you don't get to use them because, by definition, they're the behaviors you most enjoy. So it's not about ping pong tables and it's not about pizza friday and having your birthday off. These aren't bad things. They're not going to drive engagement in themselves. So, yeah, get people spending most of the time doing the behaviors they most enjoy. Number two is our research has identified eight key areas which drive engagement once you have got people spending most of the time doing behaviors they most enjoy and it is going to be specific to the individual. So our assertion is anonymous surveys don't work, because the devil is in the detail. It needs to be specific to you. What's going to engage you, bill? What's going to engage me can be very different.
Speaker 3:Give a couple of examples. Development, for example, is pretty consistent. Our research says well over 85 percent of the global working population wants some sort of development from their employer, whatever that looks like. So that actually is one of the consistence. But social opportunities now you and I are both pretty, pretty gregarious, friendly people and for me, 20 years ago, as a younger man, the days of beers after work uh, you know, president's club golf trips, oh, I loved all that that was, but now I'm too old. Last last thing I want to do is go and talk to people after work. I just want to go home, have a cup of tea and watch sky sports news.
Speaker 2:So it's got to be specific to the individual and it changes well, sadly for you then, nigel uh, you are out of luck, my friend, because, uh, I have dragged you into getting involved with a bunch of all disrupts in 2025, and some of those are in the evening, so, that's okay, because that's work okay, very good, very good, good answer, good comeback. Um, now that one thing that you wanted to highlight to our listeners today is that harrison has quite an interesting business model. Can you, can you, briefly tell us a bit about that?
Speaker 3:yeah, I touched on it on it a moment ago. Um, like I said, over 95 of our global revenue is through our channel network. So, like I said, I'm responsible for europe and africa. I've got about 200 currently and they go from one person executive coaches to seven, eight hundred person training companies and kind of everything in between, and the great thing I love about it is it just means the talent that I've got in my partner community is absolutely phenomenal.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about events because a moment ago I mentioned disrupt. Uh, you spoke at the harrison assessments international europe and africa conference 2024. Gosh, that's a mouthful. Uh, what events do you have in the calendar for 2025? And I'm going to start your answer for you. Um, so, uh, nigel is going to be present at a bunch of our disrupt events in the uk throughout this year, in london and milton keynes and other places. So he's going to be stepping up for the challenge of five minutes, 20 slides, 15 seconds per slide to wow and excite our audiences. So that's going to be fun. I saw you at the tail end of last year 2024, at the Connect conference by the Learning Network. Subsequently, I've joined the board there. We had our meeting about a week ago in Manchester, so that might be another one that I see you at, nigel. What?
Speaker 3:other events have you got coming up in 2025? So, as I mentioned. So yeah, I'm off to Ghana in a few weeks' time to speak at some events on behalf of our distributor there. Looks like they'll maybe be going to Baku and Azerbaijan to do something similar. Did that last year, which is great. Baku is a wonderful city. I'd thoroughly recommend it if you've never been there. A few others planned.
Speaker 3:We've got our own conference Haven't quite decided where yet, but I'm edging towards Sweden. So Stockholm or Gothenburg. We've got a few more under discussion. There's one that's in an African-based one that kind of goes around Africa. It was in Rwanda last year, which I just went to as an attendee just to basically check it out, and I'm hoping to get approval from the CEO for a sponsorship package very soon to for the net to go to there in may. In that'll be in tanzania, so that'll be dari salam. So again, that'll be somewhere else. I haven't been before, so I'm hoping that I can. I've put a strong enough business case together for that one uh, my next question can possibly have a one-word answer.
Speaker 2:Is it fair to say that you enjoy traveling, nigel?
Speaker 3:Yes, and I'm fortunate because it kind of averages out at probably one trip every six weeks. Now obviously it's never that gap. It's been about three months since my last one, but it's always it averages. So it's. I still enjoy the travel both the places I get to visit, but just doing the traveling I quite enjoy that, but it's not. If it was every week that'd be. Yeah, I'd never see my family. Um now, my wife and kids might be quite happy about that, but I wouldn't be very good and just finally for today, nigel, how can our listeners connect with you?
Speaker 2:so is that linkedin? You want to share your email address? Are you super cool on the TikToks and the Instagrams and things? And, of course, how can they find out more about Harrison?
Speaker 3:so, so, so. So I'm not super cool, so I'm afraid I'm. I'm for primary LinkedIn, but I do believe I am the only Nigel Gracie on LinkedIn, so hopefully, if you if you look me up, you should find me quite easily. The Harrison website is always a good place. If people are interested, harrisonassessmentscom you can find some contact details there. If people are more than welcome to drop me an email, ngracy at harrisonassessmentscom, gracie is G-R-A-C-I-E.
Speaker 2:Amazing Gracie. Very good, had to do it. Had to do it.
Speaker 3:I've been called worse.
Speaker 2:That just leaves me to say for today Nigel, thank you very much for being my guest.
Speaker 3:My pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Thanks, Bill.
Speaker 2:And listeners as always. Until next time, happy working.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work? Subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom.
