The Skills-Based Revolution Is Changing How We Engage Talent with Dr. Rochelle Haynes

Dr. Rochelle Haynes returns to the pod to discuss her OpenHR framework, a comprehensive approach to helping organizations thrive with today's blended workforces. As founder and CEO of Crowd Potential Consulting, Rochelle draws on her psychology background and PhD research to address how modern workplaces can effectively engage diverse talent pools spanning full-time employees, contractors, remote workers, and AI systems.

Rochelle challenges the false dichotomy between remote and in-office work, explaining that the real conversation should center on providing wider access to meaningful employment. Despite some corporate pushback against flexibility and diversity initiatives, she observes that younger generations continue demanding work environments that accommodate their lifestyles and prioritize wellbeing. Companies forcing rigid structures face higher turnover rates as workers—particularly Gen Z—readily abandon environments that lack engagement opportunities.

The heart of Rochelle's approach lies in her OpenHR framework, consisting of four interconnected components: Open Rules (compliance and strategy), Open Tools (digital frameworks and cybersecurity), Open Skills (evolving competencies), and Open Thrills (inclusion and recognition). Built on a foundation of open culture, this model guides organizations in creating environments where diverse worker types can contribute as valued team members rather than second-class citizens. Her bestselling book provides practical roadmaps, questionnaires, and 90-day implementation plans for organizations ready to transform their approach to talent management.

Perhaps most revolutionary is Rochelle's advocacy for skills-based talent deployment rather than rigid job descriptions. This approach allows companies to identify and utilize employees' diverse abilities across departments, potentially addressing the disengagement often mischaracterized as "laziness" in younger workers. By creating more exploratory performance reviews that uncover employees' wider interests and talents, organizations can unlock hidden potential while creating more engaging work experiences. Ready to transform how your organization thinks about talent? Visit crowdpotential.co.uk or connect with Rochelle on LinkedIn to begin your OpenHR journey.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Dr. Rochelle Hayes
• 3:21 Evolution of Remote Work Trends
• 10:16 DEI Rollbacks and Workforce Impact
• 12:25 The OpenHR Framework Explained
• 18:00 Skills-Based Approach to Talent
• 22:49 Book Success and Transformation Services

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom. And visit hrgazettecom.

Speaker 2: 0:26

Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. Hello listeners, this is your host today, bill Bannam, and joining me on this episode returning to the show, in fact is the amazing, fantastic, wonderful Dr Rochelle Hayes. Dr Rochelle is founder and CEO at Crowd Potential Consulting. She's chair of the College Oversight Board at London Churchill College. She's a senior lecturer at Nottingham Trent University and she does loads of other cool things. She's also an author of an amazing book which we're going to focus on in today's conversation, and I should just add that she is my friend because she's super cool. Dr Rochelle, welcome back to the show. How are you?

Speaker 3: 1:06

I'm good, I'm good. Thank you, billy. So glad to be back here, so glad to speak to you again, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:12

So, for those folks who haven't listened to our previous conversations, why don't you start by taking a minute or two and just introducing yourself, telling our listeners a bit about your academic and career background?

Speaker 3: 1:23

Sure. So my background started really in psychology. I'm always interested in how people work, what engages people and how culture transform people's feelings in space. In terms of my academic background, I have a master's in human resource management and a PhD in international human resource management and my interest has always been well, my main focus, or what I really enjoy, is expatriate work. I like to look at when people from different races, different from different countries, are working in a background in a new country, and that kind of led into my research surprisingly on digital nomadism, which led to also looking at my research into remote work and flexibility.

Speaker 3: 2:07

So my current role is as a workforce transformation specialist and a leadership transformation specialist, and that really started from the research and the consulting that I was doing in that space of digital nomadism and remote work, but now it's extended so far beyond that. So before it started as, okay, the workforce is changing the workforce, they're prioritizing work-life balance and wellbeing and clearly there's a shift taking place, but this isn't being talked about enough. That was in 2018. So me and my business partner, jeremy Blaine, we did a global study where we spoke about the world of work not being ready for the changes to come, main one being remote work and just thinking about transforming their people management practices that would allow them to work with different types of employees or different types of workers, so, for example, independent contractors. Now, we all know what happened in 2020 when the world shut down suddenly, and that's where, of course, that demand for more flexible work occurred. Since then, it's transferred Well, I should say it's kind of my scope has widened a lot more to talent engagement on the whole, because all of these changes affect talent engagement.

Speaker 3: 3:21

The younger generations are demanding more flexible work. They're demanding work that fits with their lifestyle. They want are demanding more flexible work. They're demanding work that fits with their lifestyle. They want more autonomy over their work, and that's led to a lot of company concerns and crises around how do we keep our younger generations, or how do we keep our best and brightest minds in place? And because of that, it's required leaderships to stop and take a step back and think about how they lead, what they prioritize in the work process, but also, have they created a work environment that's actually suitable to different types of workers but also appealing to different generations of workers? So that's kind of the scope of my work, and I've done that internationally. I've worked with clients all over the world, from Asia to Europe, caribbean, north and South America, and I continue my consulting alongside my lecturing at Nottingham Trent University.

Speaker 2: 4:13

Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at HRGazettecomcom. And now back to the show. And at some point you get time to sleep, I'm guessing. Okay, very good On the remote work piece. On the flexible work piece, where are we at right now? So you know, we're a long way away from the situation during the pandemic, uh, in terms of everybody had to work remotely and and unless there were certain jobs. Um, and indeed there was that war for, for certain types of talent. Uh, since then, we have, for example, seen lots of knowledge workers being replaced by ai, lots of developers, for example, who were previously commanding, during the pandemic times, huge salaries. Now they are scrambling to get work. Is it now a buyer's market? Is it far more acceptable for employers to say no, you know what? It's not just about being on the same time zone. You've actually got to physically come to the office a couple of days a week. What's the lay of the land?

Speaker 3: 5:18

Give me your thoughts. Yeah, we're definitely seeing some changes and, of course, being influenced by wider leadership and wider trends in the market, and one of the things that we've seen is that, despite this pushback against flexibility pushback even against DEI, which is also affected in this situation one of the things we tend to highlight is that there's not a battle between remote work and in-house work. It should never have been a battle between the two in the first place. To me, the wider conversation was around providing wider access to work. It wasn't an either or. It was a case where we were saying provide more options and allow the employee as well enough freedom to also dictate how they want to work, whereas in the past, if we look at first industrial revolution and in many ways we're still trying to manage like that it was always the employer told the employee what to do, how to do it, when to show up and so forth. But the younger generations are showing that this isn't necessarily the case. We definitely see in tech, of course, we've seen the mass layoffs, we've seen companies demanding that their clients come back into office, but alongside that, we're still seeing a demand for a better quality of work, a better work culture, mental health and well-being and flexibility.

Speaker 3: 6:34

So I find that a lot of these situations and trends, they don't replace what is going, let's say the evolution that's going on in the background. Sometimes leadership, let's say country leadership or otherwise, might influence that and put harder stance. But even certain leadership are finite and then that trend still continues. So we have seen definitely the challenge there. But at the same time we still see companies struggling with, let's say, engaging younger people.

Speaker 3: 7:05

Younger people, for example, quitting very easily, gen Z if they're not happy with the work environment, they're walking out.

Speaker 3: 7:11

You know, if they're not happy with the type of work, if it's not very interesting, if it's not providing some element of flexibility, then they're saying well, no, this is not for me. So in that way, even alongside, especially in industries, because we're not saying that remote work as well is suitable for all industries but we're definitely saying younger generations and even within let's say let's call it the boomer generation, they're demanding for different options when it comes to working. So despite companies, let's say dragging people back in, let's say doing these office, let's say return to work programs, we're seeing wider and wider surveys and trends are constantly indicating not just a trend of, let's say quiet, quitting or whatever the case may be, but also indicating that while people are completing their day jobs, they're actively looking for new posts, they're actively creating their own work situation. So they can escape a lot of that. And of course, the economic situation tends to play an influence as well in terms of the timeframe that people choose to move on, or if they choose to move on.

Speaker 4: 8:23

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Speaker 2: 9:38

Thank you very much. Uh, you mentioned, uh, the rollbacks when it comes to dei as part of your answer just now. Um, what impact do you think that could have on organizations, uh, in terms of the, the quality of the talent um that they can attract? In terms of the its impact on company culture? Um, you know, we're seeing this from companies such as McDonald's and Meta. Obviously, trump's tried to mandate this throughout governmental organizations. What are your thoughts there?

Speaker 3: 10:16

it's a sad day, let's say that, when I read, when I first read, about the repeals and the reinforcements of certain mindsets, especially DEI, because we know, over the years we've done such hard work and good work to get certain, let's say, elements of the workforce, certain talent groups being able to better access the workforce, and again, these changes around the workforce in terms of flexibility and otherwise, and DIY programs sorry, dei programs are around providing wider access to work for people who typically wouldn't have that amount of access.

Speaker 3: 10:50

So I think one of the things that I've seen is that a lot of companies yes, some are enforcing the, let's say, these mandates, especially with we're speaking North America, of course, because they have to follow what's going on there.

Speaker 3: 11:05

What I'm also seeing as well is you have persons kind of finding other ways to ensure that they can still get the benefits that they do from DEI, because every study, most studies on DEI shows that diversity contributes to a company's profits and well-being and, despite the narratives that are being painted out there, there's several. Most tech companies depend on diverse workforces, google included, amazon included. They depend on diverse workforces in order to excel and thrive. I've seen situation I've been reading studies that's also been showing that there's a trend of some of those, let's say, talent groups or talent individuals disruptive, but in the long term, if companies continue along this line, then they will feel the negative outcomes down the road. So I think it's really important to keep our eye on this and make sure that we're still holding to our core values despite the disruptive leadership that's being taken place.

Speaker 2: 12:16

Okay, thank you very much, Rochelle. Let's switch focus now. What is OpenHR and the OpenHR mindset?

Speaker 3: 12:25

Yeah, okay. So OpenHR came out of the research that we did in 2018, and basically we went to different countries and we put ourselves in the remote workers position. We wanted to know what were the pain points that companies face when they dealt with individual independent contractors or open talent platform workers and so forth, and that allowed us to see the struggles that companies were having in terms of unclear objectives, in terms of compliance issues and worries and those sort of things. So what we did was we created a framework called OpenHR that was a roadmap for companies to help them navigate how to better engage a blended workforce and by a blended workforce we mean a mixture of full-time talent, part-time talent, online, offline, ai and independent contractors. So, where you have a workforce that is made up of various types of talent, how do you make sure you're engaging everybody and providing an environment where you can thrive? So in that framework, we created four rooms called Open Rules, open Tools, open Skills and Open Thrills and, on a foundation of the open culture, and that really guides companies through. For example, the rules tells companies about how to ensure they have the right compliance issues sorted, make sure they have the right future workforce strategy and create the right work environment for excellent work execution, whereas the open tools talks about how you create a digital framework that you feel protected in. So, for example, think if you have worries around cybersecurity, if you want to know how to apply your AI talk about things like that.

Speaker 3: 14:08

Open skills talks about OK, what are the skills that companies need as they evolve? To these, let's say more modern, more inclusive practices. To these, let's say more modern, more inclusive practices, whereas open frills is like how can you make sure everyone in your workforce is included, feels rewarded and recognized for their contribution and role? And let's say, the heart of the open HR mindset is creating wider access to work and an environment which provides good work. So, where you have a blended workforce, ensuring that everyone in your workforce from full-time, part-time to independent everyone feels like first-class citizens rather than second-class citizens. Making sure they have the tools that they need to do the job, making sure they're being paid appropriately, making sure your company is operating within the parameters of your compliance needs. So openHR is a full scale map for clients, a full scale map for companies to consider how do you actually create a workforce that allows you to engage with different types of talent at the same time?

Speaker 5: 15:11

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Speaker 2: 15:53

Very good, okay. Uh, you mentioned the skills-based approach in your book. How does open hr link to that?

Speaker 3: 16:01

so one of the ways, one of the reasons why we highlight the skills-based approach is because open hr helps companies to understand how they can benefit from, let's say, not only prioritizing a job-based approach let's say, hiring according to job descriptions, boxing employees into these very singular roles or linear roles but also where you're interacting with independent contractors most independent, or let's call them open talent most open talent persons working as open talent.

Speaker 3: 16:34

They operate on a project basis. So that's where the skills-based organization comes in, because by learning how to operate in a way where you are able to identify the skills you need for particular projects right across the organization, then you can deploy different types of talent depending on who has the best skills, rather than saying, okay, I'm going to keep you in this very linear position because you're an accountant, so you will only work in accounting. But if you have an accountant who, let's say, is a part-time graphic designer or maybe they're a social media influencer, perhaps they might be good for a project in another part of the organization where you might pair them to work with an independent contractor to solve the problem because they have the best skills. So open HR tends to, let's say, promote the skills based approach as well, because it allows the organization, or guides the organization, into how they can one identify the skills that they can deploy right across the organization but also use open talent to solve some of their deepest challenges.

Speaker 2: 17:36

Just a side note or just a follow-up question that occurs to me. If someone is hired to be an accountant and then their HR team says hey, we noticed that you've got these other skills and you can do graphic design, and then they go and do a little graphic design project with an entirely different team, can they actually be judged on that? You know, is that part of their performance review? Should it be?

Speaker 3: 18:02

They could possibly you can have it around, let's say depends on the, and it requires a conversation really with that employee, understanding what are their wider interests. In many ways, I think the performance appraisal conversation should probably become a bit more exploratory, because one of the things that younger generations are saying are or let's start with the other side most employers, they criticize the younger generation as being lazy. I often challenge that and say is your employee lazier? Are they checked out?

Speaker 3: 18:33

And when you speak to Gen Z, for example, a lot of younger employees are bored within the job. However, let's say, if you have a younger person working in the accounting field, you have an appraisal meeting where you understand what are their wider interests and what are the problems that we've been trying to solve in this company. If you have, let's say, a database or a heat map, let's say, of those wider skills and you are allowing your employee to work on various projects, then of course they're yes, they're still meeting their, their accounting requirements, but at the same time, even those accounting skills might be transferable to solve. Why the problem? So it's up to an organization to decide how they want to reward that really and it should be rewarded okay and you've been doing lots of launches.

Speaker 2: 19:18

So, for example, I wasn't able to make your launch in london. I'd sent you a note saying I'm terribly sorry. I really wanted to go to that. That looked like a lot of fun. Uh, generally speaking, what's been the response to open hr so far?

Speaker 3: 19:31

yeah, it's been pretty good so far. Um, it's definitely doing really great on the chart. So when we first launched the open HR book we made the next day we made UK number one bestseller. The next day we made top US release and we still do not know if we made US number one bestseller. We know we made number two bestseller, but it was because we weren't really following the charts. We were in Singapore at the time doing another launch, so we won't know if we actually made it. So, yeah, it's been doing what it is made Number one in India is now an international bestseller.

Speaker 3: 20:05

We've had businesses reaching out to us and saying that they're really, really happy and grateful and they find that the book is a very useful guide. So, for example, gig AI has been promoting the book a lot on social media platforms because they're a talent platform organization and they had an employee who was hired recently and they recommended the book to that employee and that employee reached out to me separately and said hey, I'm very new to this role, I'm working in this way and I just want to say I'm really grateful to the guidance that you've provided in this book. I'm finding it very helpful in my new role. So one of the things about the book is that it's extremely practical. We outline roadmaps, we outline questionnaires, beginner questions, sort of 90-day plans that companies can look at. So we've really been getting positive feedback on how useful it is.

Speaker 3: 20:56

Rather than academic, it's a very useful roadmap for organizations and I'm very proud of that because I think a lot of companies are always interested in the what-to. I think as academics and also in general as a speaker, we're very good at saying to companies this is what needs to happen for change, you know. But then the how-to. Then companies are like oh great, this sounds excellent, now how do we do it? And the book is a real how-to guide to do that.

Speaker 2: 21:22

Okay, so Dr Rochelle Haynes, international bestseller. What about that? And if organizations wanted to work, work with you, if they wanted to start their open HR transformation journey, how would they work with you? What does that approach look like?

Speaker 3: 21:37

Well, usually they'd reach out to us. Some of them would go to our website, so my website, crowdpotentialcouk or they reach out via LinkedIn and we would set up a meeting and discuss the particular pain points they're having on areas. And a lot of the time, a lot of our work, tends to start with an organizational diagnosis understanding, well, how is talent deployed in the organization, when, how often is this talent used? Where are the areas that might be a possibility for different groups to come together? But really just understanding the anatomy the anatomy of your hire or the anatomy of how you use individual talent groups and from there we might go on to look at, okay, what are the key priority areas.

Speaker 3: 22:25

And sometimes we do full-scale transformations with trying to make sure companies are secure, let's say, in the open rules, tools, skills and thrills area. Or sometimes companies might have a very specific need, perhaps open tools, where they want to engage in a digital transformation process that's actually effective, because 80% of digital transformation processes tend to fail. Research concludes that over and over. So sometimes they might hire us specifically for the open tools. Maybe sometimes they hire us specifically to help them to upskill their HR departments to ensure that they can work with different groups of talent and make sure they have the right future workforce practices in place to do that, and then we might do it on a consulting basis, or maybe it's a keynote we might do, or maybe specific workshops on the pain point areas where we sit down and work with the client to solve those.

Speaker 2: 23:22

OK, so just to recap, crowdpotentialcouk or reach out to Rochelle on LinkedIn. She is very good at responding, as I know, because we send each other messages. Ok, anything else you'd like to add, anything else you'd like to say to our audience before we wrap up our?

Speaker 3: 23:39

conversation for today. Make sure you get out there and buy the book, check out the book and hopefully you enjoy reading it. It's a very practical business read, so hopefully you enjoy it and it's available on Amazon.

Speaker 2: 23:51

It's available wherever you want to get your best top selling books. Um, okay, cool. So that just leaves me to say for today Rochelle, my friend, lovely catching up with you, lovely to see you. Thank you very much for being here.

Speaker 3: 24:03

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be back.

Speaker 1: 24:05

Great to see you again thanks for listening to the HR chat show. If If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work? Subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hrgazettecom.