HRchat Podcast
Listen to the HRchat Podcast by HR Gazette to get insights and tips from HR leaders, influencers and tech experts. Topics covered include HR Tech, HR, AI, Leadership, Talent, Recruitment, Employee Engagement, Recognition, Wellness, DEI, and Company Culture.
Hosted by Bill Banham, Pauline James, and other HR enthusiasts, the HRchat show publishes interviews with influencers, leaders, analysts, and those in the HR trenches 2-4 times each week.
The show is approaching 1000 episodes and past guests are from organizations including ADP, SAP, Ceridian, IBM, UPS, Deloitte Consulting LLP, Simon Sinek Inc, NASA, Gartner, SHRM, Government of Canada, Hacking HR, McLean & Company, UPS, Microsoft, Shopify, DisruptHR, McKinsey and Co, Virgin Pulse, Salesforce, Make-A-Wish Foundation, and Coca-Cola Beverages Company.
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Podcast Music Credit"Funky One"Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
HRchat Podcast
Hearts, Minds, and the Mechanics of Change with Richard Page-Brown
Change rarely fails because the software didn’t ship. It fails because people didn’t shift. In this episode, Bill Bnaham sits down with Richard Page-Brown, a veteran program and change practitioner, to map a clear path from big intentions to sustained behavior change. Using the ADKAR model as our backbone, we move step by step through awareness, desire, knowledge, ability, and reinforcement, translating each stage into simple tactics HR leaders can use on Monday morning.
We start with the hard question: why change, and why now? Richard shows how to use market data, employee feedback, and the risks of no action to build true awareness, then turns to the messy middle—desire—where WIIFM, persona-based impact assessments, and credible advocates turn compliance into commitment. From there, we dig into knowledge design for HR tech rollouts, blending e-learning, workshops, SOPs, and process maps. Along the way, we explore AI-driven skills mapping, faster upskilling cycles, and how leading platforms turn skill gaps into targeted learning, coaching, and mentoring.
Ability is where learning becomes doing, and Richard lays out how coaching, sandbox environments, pilots, and phased rollouts build confidence under real pressure. Finally, we tackle reinforcement—the Achilles heel of so many transformations—with concrete steps to update job descriptions, align performance metrics and rewards, celebrate early wins, and keep feedback loops alive so new habits stick. Richard shares lessons learned from global programs, a simple threshold rule for progressing through stages, and a bold reminder: excellent change management makes initiatives seven times more likely to meet and sustain objectives.
If you’re leading a Workday, SAP, SuccessFactors, or Oracle rollout, or rethinking your people strategy for an AI-shaped future, this conversation gives you a field guide to make change real. Listen, share with your team, and if it helps, leave a review and subscribe so more HR pros and leaders can find it. What stage of ADKAR do you need to strengthen next?
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SPEAKER_01:Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Podcast, where we explore the ever-evolving world of work, leadership, and the technologies shaping the future of HR. In today's episode, we're diving into the heart of successful HR transformation, change management, with a true expert in the field, none other than Richard Page Brown. Richard is a certified program and change management practitioner with over 20 years of experience driving transformation across complex HR operations. He's worked with global organizations across many sectors to implement new technologies, redesign processes, and most critically help people embrace change. In this conversation, we'll unpack the ProSci ad car model, explore practical tools to overcome resistance, and hear how Richard applied these principles working on global HR transformation programs. Whether you're leading a tech implementation or rethinking your people strategy, this episode is packed with practical takeaways on how to make change stick. I hope you enjoy this conversation that I had with Richard Page Brown. Richard, my friend, how are you doing? Welcome to the show today.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you, Bill. Great to be here.
SPEAKER_01:Before we go any further, just a quick nod to the Disrupts HR Birmingham chapter. We do lots of cool things in Birmingham with Disrupts. Regular listeners of the show will know I'm involved with a bunch of those. That's how Richard and I first connected, I think. It's an awesome community. So thank you, Disrupt Birmingham, for putting Richard and I together. Richard, uh, beyond my wee introduction just a second ago, why don't you start by taking a minute or two and introducing yourself to our audience? And as part of that answer, what gets you up in the morning?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thanks, Bill. So um, yeah, so I'm uh Richard Page Brown. I major in HR transformation space. So working with my sort of project program and change management background. Um, what do I what gets me up in the morning? Um, I think the the opportunities make a real difference. So I've seen lots of businesses do the same thing over and over again, making the same mistakes. And I think it's about learning from those and getting getting to a point where we're really moving the dial. So uh so that's my uh my key key driver, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:Very good. Thank you very much. So you've spent over two decades working in HR operations and transformation, of course. What drew you to specialise in change management within the HR space?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so so we all know that HR transformation programs are pivotal in reshaping how organizations manage the workforce, optimise operations, achieve strategic goals. But success to me hinges on the collective ability of individuals to embrace change. Um, and without change management, you're highly likely not to realise the full objectives and benefits. Uh, you also stand a real chance that the change not being sustained. Um so we all know that people are complex, change management just simply is not an option, and I think the smart organizations are waking up to this reality.
SPEAKER_01:One would hope so, Richard. Uh so you you've highlighted that success hinges on the collective ability of individuals to embrace change. That's a direct quote from you. Uh, why is this especially true in HR transformation programs?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so um, to me, I think HR transformation programs come in all sizes and shapes. Um, many have a heavy tech focus, but they all have one very notable thing in common, which is that they include people change. So they require individuals essentially to go from a current state to a future state to transition on that journey. Um, and this often involves different ways of working or changes of behaviour. If part of that group affected by the change is not fully invested, then that change will simply be incomplete and ineffective.
SPEAKER_01:And you advocate for the ADCAR model within the Prosky framework. What makes ADCAR particularly effective, Richard, for managing change in HR environments?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I probably should say, first of all, let me recognise there are lots of different change management frameworks out there. There's Cotter, the McKinsey, Lewin, others. Um, I personally favour ProSci, which includes the ADCAR model, and ADCAR's an acronym, so we'll talk more about that shortly. Um, but before I jump in, let me just give you a quick disclaimer. Um, ProSci owns the IP on ADCAR. Um, however, everything I'm going to discuss today is publicly available on the ProSci website or elsewhere. So I guess in answer to the question, yes, why ADCAR? Um, HR transformation is heavily focused on people change, and to me, ADCAR provides a very practical framework for this topic. It's also, I think, very easily understood by stakeholders facing change, which makes it really workable. Okay, I like it.
SPEAKER_01:Your answers are precise and to the point. That's very good. So let's unpack ADCAR a bit more, then starting with awareness. In your experience, Richard, what are some of the most effective tactics for creating genuine awareness around a transformation initiative?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure. So first let's start by saying awareness is the foundational step in any transformation. So in a HR context, this involves communicating why the change is needed and how it aligns with that broader strategy. Um, so tactics I've employed at this stage would be typically to hold meetings to outline, outline the necessity of the change. So that's town halls and webinars. Um, I would share data to underscore the need for change. So that might be looking at market trends and employee feedback. Um, and it also very important articulate the risks of no action. So, for example, reduce competitiveness or stagnant growth.
SPEAKER_01:And generating desire sounds easy in theory, perhaps, but maybe can be harder in practice. How do you align employee motivations with organizational goals, especially when there's resistance to change?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so probably let me start by saying desire definitely isn't easy. Uh, and it's about generating buy-in from employees and your key stakeholders. Importantly, yes, we need to align individuals and organizational goals. So, so what would I do to help that along? Um, probably for me, the first major step here is to focus on the benefits and the what's in it for me from an individual viewpoint. Um, I'd then also then move on to look at developing a change impact assessment uh to understand how the change will affect different persona groups. Uh I'd go about engaging leaders and influencers to advocate that transformation, and then also very keen to address employee concerns and resistance through typically one-to-one meetings and group forums.
SPEAKER_01:When it comes to building knowledge, Richard, what learning methods or training interventions have you found have worked best in HR tech transformations?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, great. So knowledge is the essentially it's the third ADCAR stage and it's required to support new ways of working. Um, as we know, HR transformation often involves new tech processes or roles, uh, and then employees and managers need to acquire additional knowledge. Uh, and that knowledge transfer should be iterative, allowing time to build confidence. So, for me, here key interventions would include probably conducting a learning needs analysis up front, uh, developing and delivering then comprehensive training programs, providing access to e-learning and workshops, and then also focusing by sharing with things like process maps and standard operating procedures.
SPEAKER_01:How much more complicated is that learning needs analysis? I wonder, given that AI is changing things so fast at the moment.
SPEAKER_00:That's the thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It's all about just identifying skills gaps, isn't it? Really, and plugging that gap. And AI is going to have a big part to play there for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So are you seeing at the moment, you know, you you're you're doing analysis like that, but actually, um, when you go and work with another company in just a couple of months' time, that's that's heavily different because that some of those gaps have already been filled, some roles have been augmented, some jobs perhaps in their entirety have already been replaced. Is it is it that rapid at the moment?
SPEAKER_00:It is, yeah. And also some of the tier one sort of tech solutions are focusing really heavily on their skills um modules. So they're able there to identify what jobs, uh what skills are required in certain roles, um, to allow the individuals and managers then to score individuals on their skill ratings, and then where there are gaps then to identify different interventions, so training, interventions, coaching, mentoring. Um, so I think we'll see a rapid um expansion of that sort of activity.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, let's talk about the second A now. How do you ensure that ability, translating knowledge into confident action, is properly embedded across different teams? Any techniques that you think absolutely work and you'd swear by those?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, indeed. So ability, as you said, is the stage where knowledge is translated into action. Uh, and it's the demonstration of competence. So it's where individuals show that they've acquired the knowledge. It's also at the hands-on experience, so crucial for embedding those new behaviours. So techniques at this stage would be looking at mentoring and coaching, and probably most importantly, actually, creating sandbox environments for individuals to practice and play. Um, also to consider probably things like pilot projects and phase rollouts so people have time to adjust, and then also as we go on the journey, providing ongoing feedback and taking corrective actions where necessary.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so this all sounds wonderful, Richard, but uh I'm I'm sure that you're uh acutely aware that um actually making it stick uh uh in the long term can be a challenge. So, in in in the context of reinforcement uh being the Achilles heel of change initiatives, how how can HR leaders make sure that behaviours stick long after go live?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, indeed. So absolutely, reinforcement is all about sustaining the change, and it's absolutely a common challenge in all HR transformation programs. Um, so reinforcement strategies ensure that transformation becomes part of the old culture, and without reinforcement, old habits may and probably will resurface and undermine the transformation. So here the key tactics really are celebrating early wins, recognising individuals' contribution to the change, um, consider using surveys and feedback tools to measure progress, update job descriptions to enforce and embed that change, uh, and also think about things like your overall performance metrics, reward systems, and policies so that they all then reflect the change and tie the individuals then into the into the new state.
SPEAKER_01:Do HR leaders sometimes face challenges when they're updating uh a job spec? You know, would would there be a conversation uh when it comes to the annual performance review if they still exist, for example? That that that time of the year where they sit down with an employee, and the employee says, hang on a minute, this isn't what you hired me for in the first place. You can't judge you can't judge me on these these criteria. What happens in that situation?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, with all transformation, you get to a point where either the money runs out, interest runs out, people go chasing the next shiny thing. And the the reinforcement activities often get overlooked. So those conversations typically don't take place. So people are in this new world, but they're not fully aligned because their job specs aren't aligned to it or their thinking isn't aligned to it. So you get drift and then you get that erosion of the benefit. So um, so it's it's it's it's it's a very silly thing to move on before properly embedding all that stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, we are flying through my questions today. Thank you very much. You touched on some key challenges in applying ADCAR, like resistance, poor communication, and limited resources. How how do you approach these barriers in a proactive way?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure. So the ADCAR model definitely provides that robust framework, but there will be challenges along the way. So you get resistance to change from individuals, perhaps due to fear, uncertainty, or lack of trust. Um, you've got something called the Swiss cheese effect as well, which is basically where you potentially run the risk of having an incomplete or ineffective transition. Um, you might have inadequate communication along the way, leading to misconceptions and disengagement. Um, and oftentimes your challenge with limited resources, time, budget, expertise, whatever. Um, so addressing these challenges definitely requires proactive planning, engagement, and the need to be adaptable as well. So, what I would say is at each each ad car stage, you know, take your head up, look, listen, take the appropriate action, uh, and make sure that every individual is engaged as part of that journey, don't be taking shortcuts along the way.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, and you've you've mentioned splitting efforts across tech, project management, and change management. Can you explain why by CM should carry the lion's share of focus?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure. Um, so I mean HR transformation programs are complex undertakings, um, but the tech and the project management are actually mostly known quantities. So, you know, work packages can be managed. You know, if you follow the IKEA instructions, you'll end up with a functional wardrobe. But but remember, success hinges on the collective ability of individuals to embrace that change. So it's all about the hearts and minds, getting people to buy into that change. And quite simply, you can't add a task to a project plan and think that change will happen. So change management to me is crucial to delivering that sustained change. We also know as well from pro Sci research that initiatives with excellent change management are seven times more likely to meet and sustain objectives.
SPEAKER_01:I like that you used IKEA as an example and then you used the word hinges. I don't know if that was deliberate, but that was that that was that was good. Uh as a as a father, I like a good pun. Um okay, so we are almost at the end.
SPEAKER_00:My penultimate question for you is We missed one bill, actually, which was the previous question. Do you want to do that one as well? Or do you want to jump over that one? Question 10.
SPEAKER_01:Um lessons learned from managing these transformations. Sure, yeah, okay. Yeah. Uh okay, here we go. So you've worked across many HR transformation projects, of course, applying ADCAR in a complex global setting. What were the biggest lessons learned from managing these transformations?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I guess I mean, thinking back as a novice, I'd focus on the project tasks and deliverables. Um, I had great project plans and progress reports, uh, and things mostly ran like clockwork. Um, projects got delivered and the tin got installed. But I knew there was something missing, and I could see that things sometimes were slipping backwards post-go live. And then there was the realization actually that what I was focusing all my efforts on project and program management and ignoring the change management element. So that was a real lifeboard moment for me. Um, so to me, very important to view HR transformations and ad car as a linear journey. Definitely don't jump ahead. Uh and what I would say is well, if you imagine each ADCAR stage um with a score of say between zero and five, I would say only progress where the score is four plus.
SPEAKER_01:Uh for HR listening, HR leaders listening who are about to embark on a transformation project. What's your one piece of advice to ensure that their change management efforts do not fall flat?
SPEAKER_00:We like some practical takeaways. Help us out here. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I guess you know, reflecting back on all my time doing this stuff, I would say invest properly in change management. And I'm not just talking about the bit of comms or the your training session. So make change management the big focus of your transformation effort right from the outset. Don't be cutting corners, don't accelerate ahead until you've got those solid foundations in place. And I would say that remember the ADCAR model is a really useful tool and will absolutely help you on that journey.
SPEAKER_01:Wonderful. And just finally, for today, Richard, how can our listeners connect with and learn more about you? Is that LinkedIn? Do you want to share your email address? Are you super cool and all over TikTok? Tell us more.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so uh so I'm I'm I'm uh active on LinkedIn. Um my account, you'll find me as Richard Page Brown. So just gone to LinkedIn and find me there. Um, but happy to engage with with yeah, all your audience, uh, many of whom might do so already. But um great to keep the conversation alive. So so whether that's HR transformation, change management, or anything in that sort of space, yeah, give me a shout.
SPEAKER_01:And just to add to what Richard said there, my experience of Richard ever getting to know him over the last while is that he's a lovely guy, he's very welcoming, he's very open. So if you shoot him a note, I'm pretty confident he'll get back to you. Uh unless you've got something stupid to say while you're trying to sell to him, then you know, um, that's on you. Uh Richard, that just leads me to say for today, sir, thank you very much for being my guest on the HR Chat Show. Thank you, Bill. It's been a real honor. Thank you. Enjoyed it. And listeners, as always, until next time, happy working.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette? And remember, for what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.
