Most Change Fails Because Brains Hate Risk with Georgie Cooke, Lima Delta

Change doesn’t fail because people are stubborn; it fails because the rollout forgets how humans actually change. In this HRchat episode, Bill Banham sits down with Georgie Cooke, Learning and Change Strategist co-founder of Lima Delta, to unpack why so many transformations lose steam and how to design plans that stick. 

From status quo bias and risk aversion to the quiet power of team norms, Georgie explains the psychology that shapes every initiative and shows how to turn insight into action.

Tune in to hear a clear breakdown of the Inspire, Train, Sustain framework and why sequence matters. Inspire builds urgency with a story that balances opportunity with the cost of staying the same. Train turns ideas into decisions through scenario-based practice and feedback that builds real capability. Sustain locks in new habits with aligned processes, incentives, communities of practice, and ongoing communication that respects the forgetting curve. We walk through a global engineering case study where leadership behavior shifted from vision on slides to norms in daily work—town halls and toolbox talks, a custom self-assessment, scenario learning, leadership labs, mentoring, and performance systems all pulling in the same direction.

Managers are the hinge that determines whether culture moves or snaps back. Georgie, a speaker at the November 12th Disrupt London summit, shares how to equip them as a distinct audience: early access, practical tools for local contexts, and clear expectations for the first 90 days. 

Bill and Georgie also explore how to align company values with local realities, making the “why” personal to each team. If you’re leading HR, transformation, or people development, you’ll leave with concrete steps to diagnose resistance, tailor messages, and build environments where the right behavior is the easy behavior.

If this episode sparks ideas for your own rollout, follow along and share your biggest challenge. Subscribe for more conversations on change, leadership, and the future of work, and leave a quick review to help others find the show.

Connect with Georgie: linkedin.com/in/georgina-cooke-ld

Learn about Lima Delta: limadelta.com

Check out Lima Delta's Pathfinder workshop: limadelta.com/pathfinder

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Topic Setup
• 1:57 Meet Georgie Cook And Lima Delta
• 3:42 Why Change Initiatives Fail
• 6:19 Human Bias And Culture Barriers
• 8:59 Personality Types Vs Motivation
• 10:16 Bridging Strategy And Action
• 11:18 Inspire Train Sustain Framework
• 12:23 Leadership Behavior Case Study
• 16:15 The Sustain Phase In Practice
• 18:06 Managers As Make Or Break
• 20:41 Aligning Values Across Teams
• 21:55 60-Second Sustain Playbook
• 23:16 Disrupt Summit Preview
• 25:08 How To Connect With Georgie

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:02

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.

SPEAKER_02: 0:25

Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Pod. Hello, listeners. I'm your host today, Bill Bannham, and this time we're going to consider why over 50% of change initiatives fail. We also offer practical tips for HR leaders to bridge the gap between change strategy and action, leading to tangible results for the organization. Joining me on the pod today is Georgie Cook, a learning and change strategist with over 14 years' experience helping businesses turn strategy into action. Georgie has designed smart, scalable digital solutions for global brands like PepsiCo, John Lewis, DiAgio, and HSBC, always with a sharp focus on real-world impact. As co-founder of Lima Delta, Georgie leads the creation of digital tools, assets, and learning experiences that make change stick. Her work is rooted in behavioral science and shaped by a deep understanding of how people learn, adapt and grow, especially in fast-moving organizations. A regular speaker and coach, Georgie is a learning technologies award judge and has featured on podcasts including Marketing for Learning, Mind the Skills Gap, and People Unboxed. Georgie brings clarity, warmth, and insight to every conversation about learning, change, and the human side of work. I hope you enjoy this conversation that I had with Georgie. Georgie, it's my pleasure to welcome you to the HR chat show today. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_03: 2:02

Hi, Bill. I'm great. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02: 2:05

Thank you. So beyond my wee introduction just a moment ago, Georgie, why don't you start by taking a minute or two and telling our listeners all about yourself, your career history, and what gets you up in the morning?

SPEAKER_03: 2:17

Great. Okay. So my career background has been in learning design. So straight out of uni, I was working for a large e-learning development house, really kind of straight into the detail of learning design. And I really cut my teeth in that industry, learn a lot. But over the time that I did that, I really realized that in a workplace context, learning and development isn't just for the sake of it. It's not just for the love of learning. More often than not, it's because the business has got some kind of change they're trying to make and they need all their employees to be trained on that change. But often, just for me learning isn't enough to make that change happen. So the longer that I was doing that, the more I realized that I think a more holistic approach to making change happen in business is needed. And so five nearly six years ago, I co-founded Lima Delta, which, as you've talked about a bit, is an agency that takes that more holistic approach to making change happen and stick in organisations. And now I spend my time running that company and consulting with our wonderful clients on kind of the transformations that they're looking to make and helping design the rollout plans for them to do that really well.

SPEAKER_02: 3:40

All right, brilliant. Thank you very much. So according to McKinsey, Georgie, over half of change initiatives fail. So my question for you is why?

SPEAKER_03: 3:54

Yeah, the stats are quite damning actually. So the the specific statistics in um that study that you're referencing there is that 44% of change initiatives fail to achieve their goals within the first year. So they don't achieve the performance goals that they set out to. And then after three years, it's even worse, and only 12% are still working after three years. So there is quite a lot of evidence to show that a lot of change initiatives just don't have the impact that we hope they will up front. And I also think anecdotally we know this to be true. You know, we get there's a lot of talk about change fatigue, a lot of people kind of rolling their eyes, not another one, here we go again. And I think anecdotally, we sort of know that feeling to be true as well. Um, as for why, I think there's two main reasons. Mainly, I think it's that the human brain is very interesting in that it's really resilient and very adaptable and can change, but it's also hardwired to avoid changing unless it absolutely has to. You know, we're kind of wired as humans to avoid any perceived risk, keep things the same. So ultimately, humans as a whole are a tough crowd when it comes to change. Um so that's the first reason I think change fails. And the second is that the rollout plans often in organizations when they're trying to make change happen, they don't take that into account. There's this sort of assumption that if we can just tell people how amazing our vision for the future is and why they should be excited and why they should get on board, that they will get it and they will get on board and they will voluntarily change their ways of working and do the things that we want them to do. And unfortunately, because the brain is how it is, that's just not really how it works. So I think a lot of the time we're not taking the time to understand what those psychological barriers are and design around them. And that means that even the best-intended programs just don't land with the people they need to.

SPEAKER_01: 6:02

Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at hrgazette.com. And now back to the show.

SPEAKER_02: 6:18

Okay, thank you. So, as a as a follow-up to that, in your opinion, what do HR leaders need to know about human behavior when it comes to driving change?

SPEAKER_03: 6:27

I guess some of the some specifics on the the brain, I guess, piece I was talking about there. Some key things to be aware of, I think, is that most of us have what we call a status quo bias. So just a kind of general inherent belief that it's safer to stay the same than to change. So even a really exciting, compelling change message, people are likely to still pick holes in it and think that does sound really good, but it might not happen exactly like that. And therefore, isn't it better to just stay safe and stay how things are than take the risk of changing and failing? Part of that is that something else that's at play is risk aversion. So that's the that describes this phenomenon of basically for most humans, the fear of loss is stronger than the desire to gain. So again, that people are less likely to have a strong desire for the future vision. They're more likely to be afraid of losing the comfort and the safety of what they currently have. I think if HR leaders can be aware of this starting point, then they can start shaping messaging that actually responds to that rather than kind of ignoring it and hoping people will be able to put that aside and just get excited. And one other thing that I think people should know about is something called inhospitable social norms, which sounds a bit like a disease, isn't it? It's basically a description of the fact that if a social culture, in this case, a workplace culture, a team culture, if that culture is not receptive to the change, it's really hard for an individual person to kind of stick their neck out and do something differently when the environment and the culture is saying the opposite. So I think that's another really important thing in these change programs that just saying the right stuff will never be quite enough. The environment and the culture really has to support it if it's going to work.

SPEAKER_02: 8:28

Okay, thank you. So you mentioned as part of your answer there, most of us you said have status quo bias, and a lot of us are also risk averse. Um I wonder if you're able to you're able to offer any models around that, whether that's Briggs Myers, um, Ocean personality model, the disk assessment. Are there any particular personality types that perhaps are less less uh risk adverse? Uh that they are they are more pro-breaking the status quo.

SPEAKER_03: 8:59

That's an interesting question. I think it's um probably in my experience, it's probably less about personality types and more about people that have got some kind of motivation that's stronger than the status quo bias and risk aversion. So that might be people within the business who are really trying to make a name for themselves and really want to be seen as part of the new way, not the old guard. Often new people coming into an organization are much more receptive because they're already in this state of change. They've already decided, right, I'm moving from previous organization to new organization, and they're sort of already in the headspace to be taking on new ideas, new direction, and they're sort of in that space already. So it's a good call out, but it's definitely not the case that everybody across the board has is going to be really anti-the change. It's just that as a default setting for a lot of people, that's the starting point. And it's if we can acknowledge that, then we'll get a lot more people on board.

SPEAKER_02: 10:00

Okay. I feel like we can have a whole conversation about this alone, but we won't. We're going to continue through. Um, how do you and your team advise HR leaders, Georgie, to bridge the gap between change strategy and action, tangible actions that make a difference?

SPEAKER_03: 10:16

Well, I guess the good news is that each of those like psychological barriers that I've been talking about there, so things like risk aversion, they all have a flip side and they all have a solution. And I think the way to take a change strategy from just being a strategy mapped out on paper that you hope people will execute to actually getting it executed in day-to-day behaviors in practice, is to design a rollout plan for your change that overcomes all of those barriers with those with good solutions and therefore successfully gets people in the right mindset to change and gives them the capabilities they need to change and creates a hospitable environment that supports it. So it's quite multifaceted, you know. I guess this comes back to what I was saying right at the start that if you do just the training piece, that's really unlikely to be enough. You've got to get people excited first and make sure the environment's there afterwards. Um, and a good way to remember this is we we've got a framework we use at Lima Delta that we call inspire, train, sustain, those being those three steps that make up a success successful plan. And that's to kind of capture, yeah, capture all the things that we think are needed to turn a strategy into execution in the business.

SPEAKER_02: 11:38

Okay, great. We'll go into the metrics in just a moment, but before we get there, um use cases, case studies. Do you do do you have any? Do you have any practical examples of of what this looks like in a real project? Can you can you maybe speak to some some clients that you you've worked with and you've made a difference?

SPEAKER_03: 11:56

We work across all different sort of sectors and types of change. So everything from um sort of big system changes, architecture changes, workflow and process changes, all the way through to more cultural things like becoming more inclusive, things like that. One that I'll talk about now that I think probably hopefully will have wide resonance with people listening, um, was a company, a kind of a global, a large global engineering company that we've been working with recently. And what the change they were looking to make was all around how their leadership show up. And this is leaders at all levels, so right from C-suite to supervisors. They were basically rolling out a new leadership framework and set of behaviours and competencies. And it was quite a big sort of cultural shift for leaders, um, driving much more towards like high performance, accountability, all of that kind of thing. So that was the change that they really wanted to make. Um, and we worked with them to dig into, you know, of some of the examples I've given so far, you know, which of those psychological barriers were most prevalent in their culture. Um, who were those people who were really um open to change and how could we leverage them? So we sort of did that consultancy with them, and off the back of it helped design a rollout plan for them that followed the Inspire Train Sustain model. So in Inspire, for example, we designed a rollout that included things like, I guess some of the classics you would expect. So things like um town hall meetings and story kind of launch videos that really tell the story of the change, but also much more subtle things like toolbox talks that leaders and supervisors in um like in offshore areas working on site could use to roll out the same message. Um, we also designed a fun self-assessment almost along the lines of something like a Myers-Briggs assessment, but it was aligned specifically to their new leadership model. So it was a way of really understanding how does this apply to me specifically? What, where are my strengths and my weaknesses. And throughout all of that, we really worked with them on what's the story behind these leadership behaviors that's going to resonate with people. Um, and for them it was very interesting because they would describe their culture as being quite humble and actually being seen as a big leader up on a pedestal isn't actually that appealing to sort of in the culture of this organization. So it was all about really understanding that and helping them work out knowing that what's the right message to deliver with this that's going to land with people. So there was lots in that inspire space. Then in train, we worked with them on some interactive scenario-driven learning modules where there's lots of feedback loops and decision making so that people can really practice and start thinking about how do I put these behaviors into practice in real, real situations. Also, some workshops, um, like live sessions to get everyone talking. And then in the sustain phase, thinking about how do we make sure the environment supports these new leadership behaviours and how do we make sure people don't forget what they are. Um, that was all about partly getting it embedded in all of the BAU processes. So things like getting it embedded in performance review cycles and 360 feedback, also making sure there's ongoing points of contact on this subject specifically. So ongoing communications, we had leadership labs where people could, leaders from across the business, could come together and share their challenges. We had buddying and mentor systems, things like that. That's all about making sure that this new framework isn't just a communication that disappears. It's actually really embedded and supported in practice. So that's just one example, I guess, of how when you really dig into a specific culture, the rollout plan you come up with is very specific to what they need and what's going to make it land for them.

SPEAKER_02: 16:24

Okay, let's continue talking about the inspire train sustain model, but specifically let's focus on the sustain piece because we want we want our listeners today to leave this with some uh tangible takeaways that they can make sure their organizations are doing the right things for the long term. Um, in terms of the role of managers, what what role do or should land managers and people leaders play in ensuring that that change does take hold? And as part of your answer, how can HR best equip them to support their teams through those transitions?

SPEAKER_03: 17:00

I really think managers are make or break. Um, you know, managers, whether they realize it or not, they really set the norms in their team. And even though there will, of course, be a sort of company culture, often teams really have their own their own cultures as well. And you could have the same rollout plan going to two very similar teams. And if one manager is really on board and excited about it, speaks positively about it, follows up with their team on it all the time, and then you've got one manager who's kind of outwardly cynical about it, doesn't really give it any time, then how those two teams respond is likely to be very different because ultimately the teams want to do do well and be perceived well in their manager's eyes. So what that manager expects of them is critical with rollouts like this. Um, but that said, it can be a tough gig for managers, you know, especially if there's lots of changes to roll out and they feel like they're constantly being given, you know, stuff from corporate to filter down to their teams, it can be a tough gig for them. So I think really engaging managers and almost treating them as their own, an own, like their own little audience subgroup within your rollout plan is really important. It shows them the pivotal role that they play, shows that you've taken care enough to make sure they know everything three to four weeks ahead of their team. So they're not on the spot feeling like they don't know the answers, you know, to the questions their team are asking them. So I think by treating managers as as important as they are to the rollout, um, that's the first step. And one other point on that, I think, is just to make sure that you again don't think of all your managers as being the same. So, for example, in that engineering company I was just talking about, there's a huge difference between a supervisor who was on site on an offshore rig versus somebody who's heading up an accounting team in China, um wildly different worlds, wildly different experiences. And so, you know, one PDF about this change program that goes out to those two people is not going to land the same with them. So think it's about how can you equip your managers on site with something in a format that works for them. So if you know that they do weekly toolbox talks with their team, what can you give them to work in that setting? And for your manager in China, firstly, don't give them something in English, give them something in their language, and think about what is the culture in their team and what's the kind of format they're going to need and help them as much as you can, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 19:48

So uh you started the answer by saying that you know, different teams are different, they they they work differently and all the rest of it. Um, then use that example at the end uh a rig manager versus uh an office-based person um in a disparate location. My dad was a rig manager, as it happens really many years ago. Oh, yeah, he was he was. Um but that said, do you think there should be uh core company values? You know, the to use Simon Sinek's term, that the the why of a business that that show up shows up throughout all of these different discussions, all of these different teams, because they uh there should be some alignment with the overall mission of the company.

SPEAKER_03: 20:28

Definitely, yes. I think and often that's a big part of these changes and transformations. Often it's about trying to get everybody from all these disparate teams to connect with the same company level mission or value or behavior or new direction or whatever it is. Um, so I think that absolutely should be. However, I think we would be doing ourselves a disservice if we pretended that that level of value is what people connect with most easily. I think realistically, people firstly connect with does this value mean something to me personally? Then does it mean something to my immediate team? And then what does it mean for the whole company? So the company level should absolutely be there. But I think it's also about helping people bridge that gap for themselves. So, how do you show somebody, I know this is what you do in your day-to-day? You might not see immediately how that links to this big picture thing we're talking about. And I think a big part of HR's job is to do bridge that gap for people so that they can connect to that big picture vision more easily.

SPEAKER_02: 21:36

Okay, so uh let's now just take a moment, step back, and make sure that we've got all these lovely takeaways for our listeners by I guess kind of recapping a little bit of what you said so far in the context of sustaining change in in the long term. Um, but I'm gonna challenge you to do so, to answer my next question in 60 seconds or less, like I like to do on this show sometimes. Okay. Uh we switch up the tempo. So the question here is what are some of those most effective ways to sustain engagement and behavioural shifts over the long haul?

SPEAKER_03: 22:10

I like the 60-second challenge. So I would say number one is make sure that your overall messaging and the story that you're telling about your change is the right one from the start because you want that message to sustain all the way through. So don't just talk about how great your vision of the future is. Talk about also the risks of staying the same so that people really understand the big picture. Then once you've got people excited and you've done your initial launch and your initial training and it comes to sustain, really, I say firstly, make sure that you've got a continuous comms plan. So the comms plan shouldn't end after a couple of months after launch, it should be ongoing. Try and get communities in place. So think about you know, if your main target audience, for example, is leaders, where do they hang out? How do they connect with each other? And how can you make your change embedded where they are? Don't remember that the forgetting curve is real. You know this change, like the back of your hand, other people don't. Keep repeating the message over and over again. Um, and finally, do everything you can to make sure that the practical BAU environment supports what you're saying. So if you want people to change the way they act, do they have the right tools and processes to do it? If you want them to prioritize X over Y, make sure that their incentive structure also supports that and isn't make sure their incentive structure isn't supporting the opposite to what you're trying to do. So, yeah, think about that practical level as well as that continuous messaging.

SPEAKER_02: 23:48

Awesome. All over that, and I think that was just in 60 seconds. So good job, Georgie. Um, okay, so we are recording this episode in early October 2025. Uh, you are one of our new victims, I mean one of our new speakers at uh an upcoming Disrupt event. Um, can you can you just take a minute or two now and give our listeners a bit of an overview of what you'll be talking about at the Disrupt Summit?

SPEAKER_03: 24:13

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. So at the Disrupt Summit, we're going to be looking in a bit more detail at Inspire, Train, Sustain, that three-part process, um, the three ingredients to a really great rollout plan that makes your change stick. Um, and it's going to be a little bit more of an interactive session. So getting you to think about change that's going on in your organization or that's coming up, and for you to start thinking about what will be really needed to inspire your people, what kind of training might they need? Where are their capability gaps? And what's the best way to get over that? And then, like we've just been talking about now, what does a really good sustained change look like in your organization? So I'll be providing lots of prompts and ideas and examples, and you'll be thinking about how to apply it yourself.

SPEAKER_02: 25:01

Excellent. And just so you don't have any um uh frightening experiences when you get there, I'm sure you already know this, but it is a quite unique format. It's five minutes, 20 slides, and we're mean, so we automate those slides to rotate every 15 seconds.

SPEAKER_03: 25:15

Uh so this this second challenge was good practice then.

SPEAKER_02: 25:19

Exactly, exactly. I had a speaker rock up at one of uh one of the disrupts fairly recently, and they weren't aware that the slides do automate. So they had a moment. Um just finally for today, Georgie, how can our listeners connect with you? So is that LinkedIn? Do you want to share your email address? Are you super cool all over the TikToks and places? And of course, how can listeners learn more about Lima Delta?

SPEAKER_03: 25:42

Uh sadly, I'm not cool enough for TikTok. Um, I am often hanging out on LinkedIn though. I like to do weekly videos sharing kind of things that I've learned from my clients. So feel free to follow me there. It's Georgina Cook on LinkedIn. I'd love to connect. And then specifically about Lima Delta, um, obviously you can find us at our website. Um, but specifically, if you've got a change kind of coming up and this has resonated with you, then we've got a specific um landing page, which um you can find the link um in the notes for this, which um it just tells you a bit about a specific offer we've got on Pathfinder Workshops, which is a workshop where we help you map out, inspire, train, sustain for your change. So we've got a few spots left for this year. So if that's interesting, you can take a look there and sign up.

SPEAKER_02: 26:31

Okay, lots of ways to connect, and there will be this dedicated landing page just for you beautiful listeners. So there we go. Georgie, that just leaves me to say for today. Thank you very much for being my guest.

SPEAKER_03: 26:41

Thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed the chat.

SPEAKER_02: 26:43

And listeners, as always, until next time, happy working.

SPEAKER_00: 26:50

Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette? And remember, for what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.