Redefining the Next Chapter at Work with Gillian Johnston

Is mid or late career really a slow fade — or could it be a powerful new beginning?

In the first HRchat episode of 2026, host Pauline James is joined by career development pioneer Gillian Johnston to challenge outdated ideas about career progression, age, and value at work.

Drawing on nearly five decades shaping career standards and programmes in Canada and internationally, Gillian reframes work beyond the traditional career ladder. Together, Pauline and Gillian explore how agency, curiosity, and calculated risk can help professionals navigate uncertainty, reinvention, and leadership in multigenerational workplaces.

The conversation tackles ageism head-on, including Gillian’s personal experience of bias and how returning to the classroom rebuilt her confidence and sense of efficacy. For leaders, this episode offers practical guidance on designing better career conversations — asking open questions, avoiding assumptions about older workers, and co-creating growth paths aligned to both individual strengths and business needs.

You’ll also hear actionable ideas on:

• Moving from linear careers to flexible pathways
• Valuing later-career talent beyond mentoring roles
• Building belonging, visibility, and stretch opportunities
• Rewirement vs. retirement and identity beyond job titles
• Practical steps for stalled careers, experimentation, and signaling interest

If you’re feeling stuck, undervalued, or unsure what comes next — or if you lead teams across generations — this episode offers a hopeful, practical roadmap for renewed purpose and performance at work.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Next Chapter Theme
• 1:11 Introducing Gillian’s Legacy And Impact
• 2:33 What Sustains A 48-Year Career
• 4:16 From Linear Careers To Choice
• 6:08 Mistakes, Risk, And Mid-Career Agency
• 8:35 Challenging Limiting Beliefs
• 10:38 Valuing Older Workers In Practice
• 13:08 Shakeups, Unlearning, And Team Design
• 15:40 Ageism Experienced And Rebuilding Confidence
• 18:05 Better Career Conversations For Leaders
• 21:00 Belonging, Being Seen, And Opportunity
• 23:05 Supporting Later-Career Growth
• 25:10 Purpose, Mattering, And Performance
• 26:55 The Retirement Dilemma And Identity
• 29:00 Letting Go, Privilege, And Transition
• 31:10 When Careers Stall: Fear To Options
• 33:30 Rewirement, Needs, And Meaningful Work

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:02

Welcome to the HR Chicken Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talented execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.

SPEAKER_01: 0:25

Hello, I'm Pauline James, CEO of Anchor HR and associate editor of the HR Gazette. I'm pleased to be back for another conversation as part of the next chapter series. For too long, careers have been framed as if they peak and then they wind down. But life doesn't follow a script, and neither should our work. The next chapter explores the choices and possibilities that emerge as we continue to shape our careers and lives. For some, this stage is about continuing to grow and pursue new ambitions. For others, it may be about reinventing, giving back, or spending more time with family and community. There is no single path, and that is the point. Today's conversation brings this idea to life. It's my pleasure to introduce Gillian Johnson, a true trailblazer in the field of career development. With more than 45 years of experience, Gillian has shaped the profession in Canada and abroad as an educator, counselor, and leader. She founded the Career and Work Counselor Program and the Career Development Practitioner Certificate at George Brown College. Gillian has been instrumental in advancing professional standards, helping to develop both the national competency framework and the National Code of Ethics in the Career Counseling field. Her impact extends internationally. She created the first Bachelor of Education in Career Advising and Counseling in the United Arab Emirates, opening new doors, particularly for women in the region. Jillian's remarkable contributions have been recognized with the Edis St. John Wellman Award and the 2025 Stu Conger Award for Leadership. Gillian, thank you for joining us today. Your career has been dedicated to assisting others as they navigate their career journey through the ups and downs of the labor market and a changing society. What has sustained your commitment and passion over a career spanning almost five decades for this work?

SPEAKER_02: 2:33

Well, it's 48 years now in this field, and it is my goal to make it to 50. The thing that keeps me going is what drew me to the field in the first place. I had worked in other kinds of helping professions for about seven years before I found this one. And the difference for me was that in career development, I really saw hope. I saw that it prepared people for the future. It gave people the tools to have agency over their own careers, therefore their own lives. And I felt that it was really a tangible way to make a difference. There's all kinds of ways for us to make a difference in this world. And this was the way that has worked for me, that I still believe through ups and downs of the labor market, as you said, the need for career development is always there. People's need to find a sense of purpose. You know, if we think about Maslow, beyond the basic needs of shelter and food and safety, once we have those, then we can actually start thinking about so what does life mean for me? And I think that helping people to know themselves well, to see the future of the labor market and equipping people with the tools to be able to manage their career across the lifespan is just a fabulous thing. And it keeps me excited.

SPEAKER_01: 3:54

We often hear the question: what advice do you have for those early in their career? But I'd like to flip our conversation today and focus on those who are further along. What do you see shifting or changing? And are there trends that you see in key motivators or a shift in considerations?

SPEAKER_02: 4:16

Well, I think so much can change, and it's a very individual thing. But I think one of the things that has really changed, probably since I entered working in 1970, is this notion that we have choice. And you can stay doing what you want, you can change your career, you can decide to retire early. All of those things are possible now. Whereas that linear way we used to look at career, that by this time you should be here. I think that that, on the one hand, gives lots of possibilities for people. And for some, of course, that is scary. I think as we move through life, as we age, gain wisdom and grow, the key for me is to never stop being curious and never stop growing. When opportunities come, give them a shot. Think about it. How big a risk is this really? Will the world end if I don't make this? And one of the things I think is hard for many people, including me, is that notion of making mistakes. If I make a mistake, it's drastic and there's no coming back. And I do think that with the uncertainty of the labor market and with the covenant between employer and employee having changed drastically since the 80s, I think it does offer some freedom to people if they're willing to take it. And so just because you're mid-career doesn't mean you couldn't be setting goals for yourself. I graduated with my master's the year I turned 50. Things are possible. If your job is sapping the life force out of you, you need to leave it. You need to do something different. Whether it's the space, whether it's the job, whether it's the management, it doesn't matter. But to know that one's well-being is far more important than anything. And if you are feeling good inside yourself, then whatever you do, it will be good.

SPEAKER_01: 6:10

Thank you, Jillian. I appreciate that. And the reality is people have economic limitations and it can be harder to carve out that energy. It's also so important that we feel that we deserve an environment that we can thrive in.

SPEAKER_02: 6:25

Well, if you will, uh in social learning theory, one of the things we talk about from the cognitive sense is challenging those beliefs that hold us back. And I remember one time in my career, I was going to make a big decision. I was a single parent. I had a full-time permanent job with the government, but I was extremely unhappy. And it was affecting all parts of my life. And a friend drew me a picture of a line that goes, and then there's a big chasm, and then the line goes the other side. And he said, Here you are on this side, and that's where you want to be. And here is the chasm of uncertainty. What is that? And I thought, it's about financial security as a single parent. And then he said, What makes you think that you would not get a job with financial security? And he was right. I was tied into thinking you never leave a really good, well-paying, permanent job. And so I had to confront my issue around this that if I left, I would never be able, you know, all these gigantic nevers, always, no one, that I wouldn't be successful. And so that was a real turning point for me in my life and in my career to be able to face some of the things that hold us back. And some of those things are internal. There are lots of external things, but internal things are very powerful.

SPEAKER_01: 7:48

Such a wonderful example, Gillian, that I think many of us can relate to, even if our stories don't directly match. And I'm appreciative of that. And Gillian, you'll know that we didn't work at the federal government at the same time, but I knew you were a legend and heard of the incredible things that you were off doing and the difference you were making in Canada and internationally. And I'll note my parents were quite concerned to hear I was leaving my government job, right? And I actually took a step back to get the frontline labor relations experience I was looking for at that point. And then, my goodness, when I left my secure job in quotes to launch anchor, that was a whole different conversation. Thank you for those insights and encouragement for all of us to take a step back and consider our mental models. Lisa Taylor, the founder of the Challenge Factory, talks about the value of older workers. It's going well beyond knowledge transfer and mentoring. I'd really love to hear how organizations and practitioners can do a better job of leveraging those skill sets of those later in their career.

SPEAKER_02: 8:53

Well, first of all, the work that Lisa and Challenge Factory are doing is fantastic. It's groundbreaking work and shifting mental models right there, just what you were talking about. For older workers, sometimes I think, as again, mental models that organizations, perhaps individual managers, start to think that maybe this person doesn't have much to offer. I'm going to invest in the younger worker and I'm not going to give as much attention to this person. They do their job. And that's fine. But for those who do, there needs to be that opportunity of no big assumptions that just because somebody's 55 and has been here for 20 years, that they aren't interested. And even if perhaps they don't want more responsibility, but would they like a little shakeup? Would they like a little change, a little challenge, somewhere where they could not only offer some of the things they've learned over their tenure, but rather learn new ways too. And sometimes I find for myself, I have to unlearn some things before I can learn something new. A guy once said to me, I was giving a speech, I was stuck on something. And he said, it's like a tree that's losing its leaves and it shouldn't be. What the arborists do is they take a big stake and they drive it into the roots around the tree. And what happens is the tree goes, whoa, and shoots all its energy up. And lo and behold, doesn't it start to flourish again? And I know for myself and my own career personally, I have to do that every nine, 10 years or so, because otherwise I get complacent. And there's nothing wrong with being, I'm good here. Donald Super calls it maintaining. Now people are calling it job hugging. All is good. But sometimes we need to also shake ourselves up. And it's not always the employer's responsibility to do that, I believe. But sometimes creating intergenerational teams gives that opportunity. Somebody who thinks very differently can challenge one to think, I never thought of that. I didn't see it that way. And it doesn't matter whether I'm the young person or the middle-aged person, we have that opportunity to learn from each other. One does not hold the key. I did my master's in change management. And I strongly believe that teams that share a vision, teams that can challenge each other around their mental models and encourage personal mastery. I'm talking about Peter saying these five disciplines. If you help somebody to look at their personal mastery and challenge them, then they are going to grow. And if they grow, it's always better for your team. It's always better for your organization.

SPEAKER_01: 12:02

Thank you. You provide guidance to individuals. You've developed career counseling programs. You're also human. And I'm interested in your own personal experience as you navigated your career in your 50s, 60s, and beyond, was there anything that surprised you?

SPEAKER_02: 12:23

Well, lots of things. Um, I would say one time I experienced ageism and I was shocked. I mean, I'm not ashamed of my age. I'm 76 years old, but when I was turning 65, was working somewhere, and because of the laws in the particular place where I was working, it was unusual for somebody of my age to be working. My contract was coming up, and I said, Well, I'm in the middle of this project. I'd be happy to stay for another year and finish the project. And the person who was a brand new supervisor to me, who didn't know me at all, said, Well, why wouldn't you take another three-year contract? And I said, I'm turning 65, and I assumed I wouldn't be able to get one. And he said, No, that would be very difficult. And it was like shades came down over his face and everything changed. And it was quite obvious that I was not wanted. And I found that extremely difficult. And when I came home a few months later, when my contract ended, I carried that with me. And I thought, you guess I'm too old now. And my friend wanted me to help teach a course one time. And I said, No, no, I'll just do this coordinating stuff. I don't think I'm fit for the classroom anymore. And she said, Well, you have to help me. So I went into the classroom, and it was a topic that I knew very well. And I did it. And I came out and I went, I haven't lost it. I'm really quite good at what I do. And it was amazing to me that me, I'm a very mostly self-confident person, certainly about my career after all these years, I should hope so. But how quickly I could lose that sense of self-efficacy and thinking, well, I guess I'm old. And then I felt like I was done. And it was such a shock. And then I thought, well, what about all those other people who haven't been blessed and privileged the way I have been privileged in my life to have a very vibrant career? What does it feel like when they're passed over, when they're put into a box, when they're not given opportunities anymore? I cannot equate my little tiny setback to what other people experience. But if I didn't have empathy before, I had empathy afterwards. And uh yeah, that was a big one for me.

SPEAKER_01: 14:40

Thank you for sharing that personal side. And you think we can be intellectually prepared, but that's still different from being emotionally prepared. And that's still different than withstanding societal expectations that we're seeing reflected back. Julian, I also welcome specific advice you would have for leaders who potentially they've been avoiding discussions with those later in their career, they're not sure, shall they be asking? Welcome your guidance on how you would suggest they approach that conversation.

SPEAKER_02: 15:10

Well, I think that so many employees, when it comes to the time for the annual appraisal and career discussion, treat go, oh yeah, right. Like they really mean it. But if the leader really means it and says, look, I don't want to make any assumptions about what you want for yourself. I need to hear from you, you, the individual, and that again, that doesn't matter what age the person is or where they are in their career. Where is that person now? What is feeding them? What do they need to continue to thrive? What would they like to see differently? And it's only if one can get out of one's own ego, and we all have them, to be able to ask humbly and genuinely what's working for you and what isn't? What would you see yourself doing over the next few years? How would you like to continue to be in this organization? What would make a difference? There will be little gems in there. There may be things that are impossible, but at least you get an idea of where the person is. And if somebody feels safe enough to be able to tell their truth, then that's pretty remarkable. It's a gift, right? That you give. It could simply be, I would love to be able to take a course during the daytime and finish up my work later at night, for instance. Just things like that, okay, that could be done, right? You could accommodate. So things don't always look like we expect them, either side of that table. But if we don't ask, we'll never know. And if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten. And that's it. Everybody has to be able to think slightly outside the box and open ourselves to possibilities. And if somebody says, no, I'm just fine. This is great. You know, I've got my plan, four years, happy to work hard. And certainly there were lots and lots of studies done showing that if the employer supported staff development, gave them opportunities for growth, and they leave, they are still ambassadors. You become an employer of choice because everybody knows you develop your staff. And think about the older worker. If you have ceased developing them, that's maybe when they're looking around to see where else I could go. Or quittance day. Quintan's Day, yeah. And it is a two-way street. I was thinking about it this morning over my own career. How did I get noticed? Because I would get offered, oh, hey, do you want to do this special project? And even sometimes things that scared the you know what out of me, I would say yes. Now, why did I get noticed? Because I said yes, because I was willing, and I've always been somewhat outspoken, apparently. And, you know, I know a lot of people don't have that opportunity or don't feel that they do, but you do need to. You need to be seen. And people who are seen get opportunities. Okay, so maybe you don't take them all, but you just start taking opportunities and whole worlds unfold. That'll be too much extra work. I don't want to do that on top of what I'm already doing. Think about it. Will that get you to something else? Both sides have to be curious and have to take some risks in order to make it work for all involved.

SPEAKER_01: 18:29

Thank you. We think of situations where there's economics and realities to how much flexibility we have in the moment. But I also think about setting ourselves up for letting our employer know that I'm feeling that I have a lot to offer, that I want to continue to grow. I want to continue to contribute. I would expect that almost all leaders will respond positively to somebody saying, I'm committed, I'm interested in contributing more. Are there opportunities? It starts a conversation, can shift the assumptions somebody is making about me. And the other reality is they may be making them for a good reason because the previous year we may have expressed disinterest, right? Things change within our own life and with our own motivations and energy levels and the like. And I appreciate you calling out the opportunities to be seen, opportunities to express our interest and to become more involved in things that interest us. What would you like organizations to know about supporting individuals later in their career? What can we do better?

SPEAKER_02: 19:25

I think acknowledging that just running something like a five years before retirement age, you get to go to preparing for a retirement workshop with a whole bunch of other older people. I remember going to mine at George Brown and all you see his gray hair. But it has to start far earlier than that. Where is this person? Have they been stuck in the same thing all along? Have you overlooked them just because they're good solid workers from a career perspective, hearing people's stories about why is the reason you left your employer after so many years? Well, I've felt like they didn't value me anymore, or they passed over me every time there was an opportunity and gave it to the younger one. And I trained those people and then they passed me over again. And that is a real thing that we see on the other side when people are midlife career changers by choice. And so how do you help a person continue to feel valued? Well you can't unless you know who they are and you can't unless you ask. And it can't always look like you might think it would look. And I do think that middle line of employees sometimes get overlooked themselves in terms of what are their needs to be able to do their work as a supervisor, as a motivator of their staff, create an atmosphere where people feel free, that they feel known, that they feel appreciated, and training supervisors and managers as career coaches. I don't mean going out joining the ICF or anything, but just basic communication skills, how to ask open-ended questions, how to inquire, how to set the scene where somebody might feel comfortable in revealing, well, actually I'm kind of bored with what I'm doing. You may as well kiss your your career goodbye in some places, right? If you were to say so well then there's the door baby. One thing I think about is community people's sense of belonging. That is one of the other things we have to think about when we think of work. I've done plant layoffs where people say this is my family. I've worked with these people for 25 years. That sense of belonging that comes from work is really important. For some people it's more important than purpose. It's more important than the paycheck and we cannot ignore that. So back to your questions around saying to a manager how would you think about belonging does this person feel like they belong here that they matter to you? That notion of belonging and mattering and community is a big part of what brings satisfaction in work.

SPEAKER_01: 22:01

I appreciate that you've underlined in a few ways that things can be unintentional. They can be assumptions that we've inherited unless we are focused on individuals' perspectives and needs, we're not going to tap into talent in the way that we ought to yes it relates to productivity it's also ethical it's ethical and it just makes sense.

SPEAKER_02: 22:24

It doesn't matter whether you're in private business or whether you're in government business it at the bottom line is the bottom line and everybody understands that that we're all contributing to that. But if I don't feel like my contributions matter then I may be calling in sick I may be doing a lackadaisical job. So does that person feel that their contribution matters? We're not just cogs and wheels. Each person matters and if they feel that they'll give heart and soul and if they don't it's not a good thing for anybody.

SPEAKER_01: 23:00

Thank you. I just want to hold the flashlight on you for a moment and ask whether there were some transitions that were more challenging than others in this later stage of your career as well.

SPEAKER_02: 23:11

Well probably the one I'm going through now is the penultimate challenge of when do I stop working? I would say 80% of what I do is not for money. I it's volunteer but the key is when do I stop? I mean I jokingly said at the beginning I've got 48 years in this field and I'd like to make it to 50. My challenge is if so much of my self-concept is tied to the work that I have done all these years, then what will fill that gap? And that is my challenge. And I suspect for many older workers that is a challenge. I've always been a a live to work kind of person. So without that in my life and I'm not talking about the structure of getting up every morning I'm talking about purpose and what gives purpose. You know I have friends who have made that transition very easily but most of them had partners and most of them have grandchildren. I have neither a partner nor grandchildren and my son lives in Vancouver and I'm in Toronto. So it's not an even playing field there. And I don't think one can compare to the others and it's still such a personal thing. And where do you get your self-worth? And I'm not suggesting that all my self-worth is tied up with my career, my belief in this particular profession. And so that's the challenge for me. And I suspect for a number of people leaving work that's the challenge.

SPEAKER_01: 24:38

Jillian I appreciate your candor do I need to retire what will fill the gap if I do I also welcome any insights you have to share given your expertise and experience on the framework that you are approaching your own decision with.

SPEAKER_02: 24:54

Well it's interesting because of course I teach transition theory and I think about transition a lot. So I think for myself again my personality is an introverted personality so I do tend to ruminate. For me I'm trying to just trust my intuition I also know that sometimes I have to stop doing something to make space within me for something else to come. So I'm not looking necessarily for a plan for what I will be doing. It's more about how can I let go of what I have been doing. I do believe that things come to me and I'm not talking about manifesting or anything else. I just think that sometimes I need to leave space inside myself for something new to come in and not necessarily worry too much. Well at this stage of the game I don't need to worry about what it's going to look like because you know I have a pension I'm fine financially which gives you lots more room. If I was an older worker who'd been earning very little or maybe lost my savings in recession, that would be a very different thing because then I would need to work for money. And I think that puts a whole other spin on things for people. I acknowledge that I am privileged and so mine is a more probably a shift in soul work than worrying about will I be able to have enough money until I die sort of thing would be a very real thing for many older workers.

SPEAKER_01: 26:26

I appreciate your transparency and honesty about how difficult it can be to navigate personally, which comes back to the importance of the field you've invested in. It's like doctor heal thyself, right? Regardless of how good we are and how much we can intellectualize things, we still need partners on our own journey. I've had conversations this past year that have surprised me as I said I'm turning 55 and I'm talking to colleagues who are in and around the same age who are concerned about being on the labor market and whether they will experience ageism. And my first thought was oh my goodness how could that apply to you I was also in conversation with someone who's feeling undervalued and they're not as interested in the work that they're doing as the economic reality of making a change and what the impact that will have. I was asked for my thoughts which were I just think you're too good and too talented to be in a role that you don't find fulfilling. That was my personal take but I appreciate that there's planning to get from here to there. I'd love to hear your advice about those who feel like their career has stalled out and they're nervous about making a change.

SPEAKER_02: 27:41

I think one of the things is to acknowledge one's fear that, you know, and look at that carefully and say, so what is the fear? And how realistic is that when you do decision making it gets to the point where people are starting to look at options. You look at what's the worst that could happen, what's the best that could happen. And so often we think in black and white terms either or this or that. And sometimes there's all kinds of other variations that we don't know. I think a really good career counselor or career coach at that stage could help. But I think people can do it on their own too if they want to but first facing up to what is it that makes me unhappy and what is it that is keeping me in this space? And once you can answer those, then it's about okay, so what would make a difference? Is it something that could be satisfied outside of work so that gives that renewed energy that they can bring into work that perhaps has got stale? Or is it the actual work itself? And so then what else could happen? Some people do side hustles just to get them the energy or to build a network or whatever it may be. I think finding mentors I remember years ago Barbara Sheer who is quite a leader in our field talked about having a board of directors of people who would give you feedback cheer you on and give you support there's always opportunities and it might not look like what you think but you'll never know until you start exploring. So when we say to people do some networking it's not necessarily to land you a new job but just be even to think about something different. What you're doing right now of recording people like me talking, you never know when that listener is going to hear one thing and think, oh I could try that. And I think helping people to feel curious about their possibilities, not expecting it will be exactly maybe as their dream is what was it Gillette called it living with positive uncertainty creating opportunities for oneself and persevering. If it doesn't turn out right the first time doesn't mean that you shouldn't try something else. What did you learn? What are you learning right at this moment? How is that guiding where you're going in your life? What do you still have to learn?

SPEAKER_01: 29:58

You know we have to be humble with ourselves too love that idea of a board of directors of paying attention to what makes us curious and really keeping that light alive. Jillian we noted in the discussion that people have different levels of privilege and economic realities. Some individuals are not in a position to retire. And to me again that comes back to just the ethics around engaging with them meaningfully because they are in the workplace for a reason. They have skills and I welcome your perspective on the little things that we can do to facilitate more meaningful participation in the workplace.

SPEAKER_02: 30:40

A friend of mine Candy Ho had a post up recently on LinkedIn and she called it rewirement instead of retirement, which I am going to adopt I'm rewiring. I hear from many people out in the field that they are getting older and older workers coming in looking for work. People who did retire and are now coming in for work. And yes there are people who are coming in because they're looking for a sense of purpose but there are a number of people who are coming in because they need to work for the money. And I think for many of the career practitioners the challenge is hitting their own assumptions about this 78-year-old who is saying I would like to go back to work and thinking well nobody's going to hire them. And I think if we think that then what chance does this person have, right? So that notion of going back to looking at well we know what the motivation is for work. How much do they need to work? What typical exploration stuff that we would do with a younger worker or a middle aged worker around who are you? What do you bring? And then if we have to add in the physically, what can you do? And really starting sometimes from scratch. For some people this is a real thing. And so I think the open-mindedness about maybe that person can't do what they did before and whether they're still an employee or they're an unemployed person, but what could they do now? What would fill those needs both the financial but other needs and how many hours could they work? All those things that we would do with any worker around helping them to choose next steps, but not assuming that just because they're old that they cannot earn money they could do jobs that other people wouldn't want to do part-time jobs. And that might just be all they need to supplement what they have because the cost of living as we know just goes up and up and up and depending where you live it's very hard for some people.

SPEAKER_01: 32:38

Jillian I'm so grateful for your time and for your insights I appreciate you underlining the tremendous impact that pausing supporting individuals be contemplative be planful about their careers understanding the importance of passion that joy is something that is worth pursuing in some measure and and you've been quite candid about your own experience. We really do want lives that are connected with community that allow us to have a sense of purpose whether that's in the workplace through volunteer work and the importance of having systems and mechanisms processes and well-trained individuals through career counseling programs to support that important journey for citizens. You're very welcome my pleasure thank you again to my guest Jillian Johnson for her wisdom and candor. This is the next chapter where we explore how we can continue to grow, adapt and find meaning throughout our lives and our careers. I'm Pauline James and I'd love to hear your story. What is your next chapter? Share your thoughts on LinkedIn or through our Anchor HR community and join me next time as we continue to reimagine work and life on our own terms.

SPEAKER_00: 34:07

And remember, for what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit hazette.com