HR in Constant Change with Perry Timms

In this episode of the HRchat Podcast, host Bill Banham is joined by Perry Timms, author of Transformational HR and founder of PTHR, to explore how HR leaders can design for constant change rather than react to it.

Together, they unpack Perry’s updated HR operating model — one built on product thinking, systems design, and behavioural science. You’ll hear how HR teams can treat services as evolving products, hire for learning speed, and design employee experiences that adapt without burning people out.

The conversation spans real-world adoption stories from charities, construction, and hospitality, showing how different sectors interpret the same principles to fit their realities. Perry also introduces the idea of the polymorphic organisation — many forms working in sync — balancing governance where it’s needed with fluid networks where innovation thrives.

Looking ahead to 2026, we tackle the AI question head-on. Instead of chasing shaky ROI promises, Perry proposes a sharper metric: return on usefulness. Measure time returned to people, clarity of decisions, speed of work, and the quality of human conversations that actually move the needle.

We close with a leadership challenge: become incubators. Create the conditions for safe experiments, rapid learning, and scalable success.

If you care about resilient teams, smarter HR design, and making technology serve people — not the other way around — this episode is for you.

Transcript

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Welcome And Listener Invite

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Welcome to the HRTA channel, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR prosent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders for hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work. Subscribe to the channel, follow us on social media, and visit hrfisnet.com.

Introducing Guest Perry Timms

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Welcome to another episode of the HR chapter. Hello, listeners, digital host. Today Bill Bannon. And joining me back on the show is the amazing Perry Timms, founder of People and Transformational HR Limited. Perry is also the author of the book Transformational HR, and he has been listed as one of the most influential HR executives by world-renowned organizations and is passionate about changing the world of work. Perry Timms, welcome back to the HR chat show. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Ah, thank you. It's great to be back. I mean, uh, we were reminiscing about how many times we've done this kind of thing, but there's always a nice twist to it. So I'm feeling good. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

All right. Well, it's uh early 2026 as we hit record today. Um, lots of us are full of optimism, but maybe a little bit of fear for what's uh coming ahead in the next year or so. Um, so you were kind enough to grab some time with me. And today we're gonna do a bit of a look ahead to 2026 focused episode. Um we're gonna be talking about some other stuff as well. Um, but um uh I'm I'm uh I'm I'm looking forward to to getting a chance to catch up with you and get your thoughts on on what folks can expect from the world of work over the next 12 months or so. Um and so my approach this time uh was let's have a good old catch-up cover of a lot of things in that context, yeah, um, and let's see what you've been up to recently. So I went through uh a bunch of your your fairly recent LinkedIn posts and and kept seeing for kept seeing one theme come up time and time again, which is around how HR can thrive in a world of constant change. And my goodness me, the world is constantly changing at the moment. So let's start there. That's a nice big juicy one to start

How HR Thrives Amid Constant Change

SPEAKER_02 2:19

with. Harry Tim's your superstar. How can HR thrive in a world of constant change in 2026?

SPEAKER_01 2:27

You are so right about the constant, persistent, incessant nature of it. So we do hear phrases like change fatigue and people saying, Oh well, I wish it had all just steady uh and and and calm down. It's like it's not going to, it really isn't. So I think we've got to admit that's the world, but I think there's a key shift in our kind of mental model and our tactics needed when it comes to change because we are still used to start, middle, and end and kind of programmatic change. I think now change is the work. Um, so business as usual and change being separate, I don't think it works that way anymore. I don't think it's even a good approach to try and take. So, therefore, it's all about interplay and intersection and dispersing it. So I think instead of trying to control it and manage it, I think we've just got to design for it so that it's a constant thing that we we almost don't notice because it becomes a normative state that we are adapting all the time and evolving actually all the time. But it's not that alien a concept to us, really, because as a species, we have constantly pioneered, discovered, experimented, grown, adapted, and and not had to put a program to it and have a red, amber, green report. So I think we've brought in all these things to try and make it more industrial and instrumental. We don't have to. People then put will say, but but how do you know it's working and and and how do you actually put resource to it? It's like it it when it happens, it just happens and you flow into it and you find it more naturally part of who you are. So do we cast the new net of change capabilities? I don't think we do, but I think what we look for, for example, in recruiting, is not just somebody who's a good expert in a role, but somebody who has the ability to expand and learn quickly and adapt and show how they are themselves tuned into change. So I think it just becomes that kind of ubiquitous, almost like a utility. Um, so I think when we do that, we design for it, not try and manage it. So I think that's really the big shift I'd ask HR to do is stop trying to manage it and design for it.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Entry-level

Hiring For Adaptability Over Experience

SPEAKER_02 4:33

people are struggling at the moment, Perry. Um the number the numbers of uh young people under the age of 24 uh unemployed in the UK, for example, at the moment, is crazy. It's crazy high numbers. Um you were talking a moment ago about adaptability and how important that is. Um is that is that a uh is that a positive for uh entry-level folks because uh they're not rigid in their ways. Um that's a differentiator for them when they're that when they're in an interview situation, that's what they should be focusing on.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah, I I I think it's easy to say, but I haven't got an experience in the changing world of work anyway. So what could I offer? But actually, what they offer is a kind of clean slate, they're a kind of tabula rasa, as it's called. So, because of that, they kind of come into a situation that have to absorb things, they have to kind of compute and tabulate things, and then they have to act on them. So, if anything, they are kind of unpolluted by traditional orthodox teaching. So, really, they ought to be the people that you throw into the mix on some of your most experimental and pioneering things because they don't know any different. They will ask awkward questions and not realize it. I saw some recent research that was done about uh younger people coming into the workplace and about the myth really that they're all privileged and they all want everything moon on a stick and all that. And actually, somebody was saying, no, they they just ask the questions that we've forgotten how to ask, or we've been almost like erased from our kind of psyche. So I think there's something about stop trying to put young people in junior roles so they can learn the way up. Throw them into a situation with some good containment and support, don't get me wrong, but they will help you do things that people in a traditional mindset just absolutely will not do.

Sponsor Message: Saverlining

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Hi, this is Ryan Kamori, founder and CEO of Saverlining, a company dedicated to empowering teams to live more joyful, productive, and mentally fit lives. And we're a proud sponsor this episode of the HR Chat Show. We exist to bridge a key activation gap for many out there who I across the figurative mental health gap. We'll also teach a couple skills that are not normally covered in weekly talk therapy sessions. Our goal is to help people everywhere become more aware of their own mental health and improve their mental fitness. Learn more about how we can help your employees at Saberlining.com.

Safe Experiments For Early-Career Talent

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Throw them in the deep end, is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Kind of, yeah. But but but with water wings and and good lifeguard support. Yeah, don't just drop them in. I mean, baptism of fire is one thing, right? But but I do think because we're looking for such novel ways of trying to get through some of the problems in the world, we will not do them if we've got very traditional people who can come in and you know apply the same methodology.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

And did that show up in your early career? Is it did did that did that happen to you when you went into your first or second role where you think it did thrown in?

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Yeah, I think it did actually because uh I I sort of lament my onboarding and kind of go, Well, there wasn't one, there wasn't really a structured program. I mean, there was something about my early days, right? Here's just an indicator of the sort of social side of it. I didn't know whether I could take my jacket off in the first two days or whether you had to keep your jacket on because nobody told me otherwise, right? So, I mean that's just a tiny social clue, right, in this whole thing. But I was quite literally given some basic instructions, and then I had to ask people, and I had to read up on things, and I found a best practice manual. It was a bit dusty, but I still found it. But I I realised actually, it's almost like I I don't necessarily need to be told everything, I can work things around for myself. And so I remember the photocopy was a great example, right? Nobody taught me it, but the first time I used it, it jammed. I had to learn how to um uh you know fix it and jam it. Um, and and I could

Personal Onboarding Lessons And Agency

SPEAKER_01 8:42

have done some real damage there, but I I sort of knew my limitations, and after that, when the photocopy are jammed, people came, oh he knows how to fix it. So I became the photocopier fix in the new office. So it's in my way, yes, I did find that experience.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

So good to know if I ever have any photocopying problems that that that I've I've got a man that I can call. Um too much. Perry, you published since the last time you were on this show, you published the HR operating model um back in the summer, back in August. Uh, can you tell our listeners about the HR operating model?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Oh, thank you, Bill. Yes. So um the story goes back to 2022 when I was honoured by my peers to be the number one most influential thinker in HR, and I thought, what a great thing that is. I kept I kept thinking to myself, what can I give back? What can I put back in the mix as a result of this? What good can I do with it? And it came to me part way through it that I looked at the sort of history of HR's kind of structure and flow, and I thought, we've been working with the business partner model

The New HR Operating Model

SPEAKER_01 9:46

for about 25 years, and the world has changed so much, right? So I thought, well, what could I so I did a bit of research, I looked around and I found lots of very complex consulting company models saying this is what HR should be like, and I thought that that that's uh that's lovely and artistic, but I don't see it moving the needle. So I thought I'll have a go myself. What would I want it to be? So I sketched it out quite literally one September. I sanded out a few of my CPO and HRD kind of uh level friends and said, Look, I'm thinking about this as a model. What do you think to it? And a few people came back and went, What? I'm like, what do you mean? Well, like, whoa, this is different. Um, this is a challenge, but actually, I really like what it invites me to think about. It's got a product orientation to what HR does, it's built on very strong process and people operations, but it it centers on systems and being good at systems thinking and science using data, evidence, behavioural science, and the performance science. And and I just think that's been such an underplayed hand in HR for so long. That's why I deliberately wanted to become part of an operator model, but we sat strongly in that space. Anyway, I road tested it with a few people, they really liked it. A couple of people have actually started to use that as their model before I even wrote the book. Then I wrote the book, put the book out, and a few people have now built their next generation, I would say, kind of HR systems and processing and flows with that model underpinning it, and the people experienced kind of frame sitting on the top. That makes me really happy. So I think often a bit of an invitation there that you don't have to do it that way, you can do it in a very different way. So it's getting some traction, and I'm really pleased with the reaction to it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Amazing. Uh, are you able to name drop a few of those uh organizations that they're

Adoption Stories And Sector Examples

SPEAKER_02 11:36

adopted?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Uh so Bernardo's is one, the charity for children in the UK. So Sarah Egliner there was one of my first consultees who instantly went to her HR team and said, I think we could play with this, and they very boldly did, and so she's continuing to drive that forward in that way. So I'm really pleased about that. I've got a client in construction, I've got one in uh hospitality, they've also picked that model as their foundation, and then some of the roles that sit on top of it have a sort of different feel to them. Um so they've done a really nice interpretation of it. So that's what I like. It's not a lift and shift model, it's a kind of platform and inspire and reshape um kind of stimulus.

Where To Learn More About The Model

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Uh and if folks want to learn about that, how can how can they do that, Perry?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Uh so the book's out, obviously, on Cogan Page. Um, I talk about it quite a bit on on stage, so there's some videos of me doing that. So um YouTube me and you'll find a couple of those, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Okay, brilliant.

The Polymorphic Organization Idea

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Uh and now I want to talk to you about the uh the polymorphic organization concept. So I was reading reading about this earlier on on HR'zone. Um uh can you tell our listeners uh what what what what what is it uh what what does it mean for an organization that gets it right? Uh that that can you know going back to the agility piece that we were you're speaking about more, perhaps you can expand on that uh and and then share more about this concept.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

It's a lovely loop back to our opening about constant change. So the word polymorphic is a Greek word and it means many forms. And I think what organizations underrate is the fact that they are actually many forms, they're not an all chart, they are lots of energies, lots of systems, lots of spaces. And I wanted to sort of reflect that a little bit more deliberately. And the word polymorphic actually comes from object-oriented programming where an object can do different things depending on the data it receives. And I thought, well, that's what an organization does. You know, it adapts to new markets, new technologies, and what have you. So I started to sketch out what a polymorphic organization kind of would feel like, and I found there were lots of theories that all kind of came together in this anyway. So dynamic forms of organization design, non-hierarchical organizations, which I've been researching for years, but equally they could honour structure and rigidity where it was needed in like governance and regulation. So I thought, yeah, many forms that's kind of what we need, and this constant sense that we oscillate between the future and our legacy. Rather than build the future and abandon the legacy, we honour the legacy and we use it as part of a strengthening for our future, and then we come back and say, Well, that legacy doesn't serve us anymore, so we'll have a new legacy and we'll create a new future

Many Forms, Systems, And Legacy

SPEAKER_01 14:13

as a result of it. That's the invitation behind a polymorphic organization. And I think there are lots and lots of people who've written lots and lots of amazing things that I've just been synthesizing through to it, like Jim Collins and his OE flywheels for org effectiveness, they're in there because they're a beautiful way of showing momentum and how performance actually happens. So it's given me an invitation to really prod at some of the things that we think are always going to be that way. And I'm saying, no, they're not, they're not really, and they don't have to be. So I'm I'm not creating like a schematic for it, I'm just inviting people to think very differently about the work they do. So that's what polymorphic is all about.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Okay, thank you. I just had a quick look there. Um, polymorphic organization with a Z and with an S dot com are currently available, Perry. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

I've got I've got a few of them already locked in. Thank you. Yeah. Uh so I've got a bit of a Creative Commons license on it as well. So I'm I'm not kind of locking it down totally, but I mean, I'm starting to see again traction, and I'm starting to use some of the thinking and work I'm doing with clients. They just don't have to know they're going to be a polymorphic organization. There are some of the things in it that can help them with problems that their uh their challenges uh are facing now. So I love that it's a sort of gentle but also um very distinct um move.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Um you've been on the show a few times. Uh you've shared

Creative Commons And Practical Use

SPEAKER_02 15:43

lots with us over the years, and we thank you for that. Uh, here's a role we have not discussed before. Uh, you're a judge for the British uh HR Awards. HR. Can you tell me about the awards and why you got involved?

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yeah. I've been really lucky because since 2010 I've been a judge in all manner of ways for the People Management Awards, um uh Culture Pioneers, uh HR Magazine, all of them, right anyway. But but the British HR Awards came just at the sort of outset of COVID's kind of unlocking. And the team there just wanted to really showcase HR teams who were adding value, they were showing up, and they were really, really strong in delivering a people proposition that meant something. I thought, well, this sounds really nice, really sharp. So I jump I jumped in, started to do some of the assessing for them, and then I spoke at some of their awards events. It's such a celebration, uh Bill, in such a

Judging The British HR Awards

SPEAKER_01 16:38

really nice, sincere way, of an HR team who does things not for the glory of HR, but for the glory of the people and the organization they're part of. So I've seen some beautiful examples in charities, in startups, in um hospitality and retail. And these are all people who are saying, you know, we've got people who care about our work. We don't want to get in the way of that, we want to amplify that, strengthen it. So it just seems to show up all these really sincere, hardworking people who achieve great things, and it's a lovely way to celebrate without it being bandstand and grandiose stuff. Just really, really powerful, peer-related support and sharing. So I kind of learned a lot from the from the process of judging because I see what people are up to. I'm like, wow, that's a really inventive thing. So I take it as a learning exercise as much as a validation thing for me. So that's why I love joining in with it.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Excellent. Thank you. Uh, we are already running out of time. These conversations they they fly by when you're on, sir.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Um they do, don't they? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Quick one from your perspective, are we at the point now where uh 2026? Um, this will be this will be a year. I was chatting to an analyst a couple of days ago. His take was 2026 very much is a year where a lot of companies have spent a lot of money in automation and AI over the last year or two. Um, they they're gonna be looking for um proof of the ROI. Um, and if they don't see it, if they don't see it, maybe they'll be going back to some previous uh practices in in some ways. What what's your take?

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Do you think we're there yet? I think it's still early days. I think we are still

Automation, AI, And ROU

SPEAKER_01 18:14

in the sort of messy start of unraveling what we could do with it. So I do think perhaps some of the ROI calculations are probably a little bit wild and optimistic and not very well grounded. So I don't think they'll match them. But I think we ought to offer a new term, ROU, return on usefulness in governance and in better use of corporate information and about liberating people to spend more time in human conversations than administering forms. So I think we ought to be looking for return on usefulness, and if we do that, I think we get a momentum thing built that means we're not just chasing numbers, we are looking at proper useful impact and value. That's what I think we ought to do with it, and I think 2026 will reveal quite a lot of that. So I think we've we've started to press go on quite a few things, and we'll now start to see what that usefulness looks like. ROU.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

ROU. I like it. I like it. Um have you got more information on ROU on your website that maybe we could put it on? Not yet.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

I literally made it up just now. Okay. However, however, Bill, I I am, and you'll see this from my post on LinkedIn today. I am looking at how we can get better traction on knowing where value is created in cycles,

Measuring Usefulness And Momentum

SPEAKER_01 19:26

in flywheels, and so on. So I'm working on that to the point that we're we're gonna have a lot more to say about that. So watch this space. This year will be how not only we see the usefulness, but we can show it and report on it and track it. Yeah, so it's gonna happen. That's a big thing for me this year.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Rock and roll. Uh, any other big things for you this year that you want to highlight?

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Uh I think it is that sense that leadership as it stands um is um using a lot of misdirected energies, and I'm really keen to see leaders name themselves more as incubators. So they're incubating new opportunities,

Leaders As Incubators

SPEAKER_01 20:03

ideas, innovation, stability, even. So I'd like to see leaders really double down on that incubation quality, and I'm gunning for that. So whenever I'm working with leadership teams, I'm gonna want to know what you're incubating. And if they're not incubating anything, I'm like, I don't think you're doing what you should be doing.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Like it. I think we I think we end there. Um, only

Closing, Links, And Subscribe

SPEAKER_02 20:23

to add, I guess, uh, if you want to learn more about Perry, check out his website, uh, check him out on LinkedIn. It's Perry Tim's of two M's. Two M's, right, Perry? Yes, two M. Okay, exactly. Two R two M's, yeah. The best way of spelling it. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah. And then on Substack2, pthr.substacks.com, which is where all that polymorphic stuff is.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

So thank you, Bill. No problem. Perfect. Perry, thank you very much for joining us on the show. Um I think we do this about about a a yearly sort of nice show, isn't it? Yeah. Uh which is great. So it's a nice way to start off 2026 for our for our listeners. Um thank you. Thank you very much for your time. We'll chat again too. Thank you, Bill. Good stuff. Thank you, Zekinek.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HRGazette? And remember, for what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrdazet.com.