The Future Work World with Barry Winkless

The future of work isn’t about trends - it’s about design.

From the Cpl studio in Dublin, Bill Banham sits down with Barry Winkless, Head of the Future of Work Institute at Cpl and author of Future Work World, to explore what’s really changing in work, HR, and leadership - and what organizations need to do next.

Barry shares a practical framework for understanding the future of work through three core lenses: "Workplace, Workforce, and Worktasks". Together, they unpack how HR leaders can move beyond policies and become designers of better organizations, stronger employee value propositions, and more compelling talent destinations.

You’ll also hear insights on:

• The real drivers of employee retention and engagement
• Why leadership teams often misread what talent actually wants
• Flexible work, hybrid work, and the presence vs performance debate
• AI in HR and the workplace: human replacement vs human augmentation
• Building future-ready organizations with human-centered design
• The rise of cooperative leadership and shared accountability
• Using storytelling and “future objects” to improve strategic decisions

If you’re an HR leader, talent strategist, or business executive navigating AI, hybrid work, and workforce transformation, this episode offers a clear and actionable perspective on designing the future of work.

Connect with Barry: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barry-winkless-7357094/

Check out Barry's new book: https://www.amazon.com/Future-Work-World-Leaders-Destinations/dp/1394349378

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Setup

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Hello and welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. A very special episode, listeners, because here I am at CPL in their cool studio with the amazing Barry Winkless, head of Future of Work Institute at CPL, host of the Future Work World podcast. And actually, straight after doing this pod, we're gonna record one for your show. And he's also the author of the newly released book, Future Work World. Barry has spent more than 25 years working at the intersection of strategy, innovation, and organizational change. Over the past seven years, he's helped shape the strategic direction of CPL, one of Europe's largest talent workforce organizations, while also building its Future of Work Institute, a thought leadership hub, innovation playground, and advisory team working with organizations across sectors and geographies. It's a pretty cool company, listeners. I've got lots more to say about Barry, but actually I'm just gonna stop there and say, Barry, how are you doing? Thank you very much for joining me on this special episode of the HR Chat Show.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Thanks very much, Phil. Great to be here in my own studio.

The Three Ws Framework

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Um so we're recording this episode today, uh, the the morning after the night before. Uh last night we had a uh a relaunch of Disrupt D show in in Dublin, and you you came you kindly came along to that and you bought a bunch of copies of your new book, um, which has been very well received. Yes. Um I've I've had a chance to read through some of it. On page eight, I'm not saying that as far as I got to.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

We're going straight into that.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

We're gonna go straight into your book, I think. We're gonna go straight into your book. Um on page eight. So can I remember the book now? No, here we go, we're gonna test you. Um, you talk about something you talk about all the time, uh, which is the three W's. Yeah. And I think that is gonna shape a lot of the answers that you're gonna give me today. So I might start there. Yeah, but for for our listeners, can you explain uh what those three W's are and and why they matter so much?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah, it's a good question. Well, I'll I'll go I'll go one step backwards first because it's a good way of answering it. And I think what's really important that all your listeners should know is that I'm actually not from a HR background, I'm from a strategic and innovation background, right? So a lot of my work was around developing strategies and creating new products, new processes, new systems, you know, new innovations, whatever you want to call it. That and um it's really that that drove my understanding for the need of a framework for HR professionals around the future of work, right? Um and what's really interesting for me, and this goes back four years in our work on the Future Work Institute, was that there really was lacking a framework, you know. So I'm sure you came across this yourself, but there wasn't really definitions of what the future of work was or what it could be or anything like that, lots of different perspectives. And for some people it was around flexible working, for others around AI and all this kind of stuff. So for wearing my strategic hat, I said, well, hold on a second, we actually need a framework here, right? Uh so in the book, actually, there's four sections, all right. The first section is around the mindset, the second bit is around the really the meta waves, these big changes happening, the third is around a model, a model to use, and the fourth piece is move. So it's almost like a strategic guide for the future of work. And the reason I'm saying all of that long intro is because that first section around the mindset is you know, how do we actually think strategically around the now next of work so that we're one step ahead of whatever competition we might have or you know, ahead in terms of fulfillment, whatever way we want to measure that. And within that, I tried to come up with this really, really simple model, which was the 3W model, right? Uh, which is basically you know, workplace. So that's where work takes place from a digital, physical or virtual space, uh, workforce, so that's the the skills, the organizational structures around the workforce. And then finally, work task, which is around the mindsets, the tools, the technologies to deliver the actual work. And that's absolutely core to you know everything else, then beyond the book. And you know, it sounds deceptively easy, right? But to come to that simple definition around the future work took a long time. So if I bring it all together, really the definition of the future work as it relates to organizations is the purposeful design of the three Ws, right, in the business of uh sorry, in the context of business and society, right? So that's the the official definition. Took me a long time to get to that level of simplicity.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at hrgazette.com. And now back to the show.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Okay, love it. Thank you very much. You your new book uh argues that organizations must become destinations for talent. What does that really mean, Barry? And and why is this idea pretty critical right now?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Yeah, I think I purposely use that phrase destinations, right? Because I always had this, I have a big thing in my in my toolkit, I say, that innovation really happens bringing knowledge from other places into you know areas that weren't used to that kind of knowledge base, right? So some of that I thinking comes from the travel and tourism industry, right? So who are really good at designing and talking about destinations, right? Um, I would say we're not very good at that within organizations, right? So the idea of destination is thinking about everything, every small detail, and designing it purposely, right? So thinking like a designer, um, thinking like a destination designer, you know, so recognizing that your your place of work is a destination that some people want to have a long haul in, you know, some will like a short haul, some will come to it in different ways, right? Um, and it's really, really important for me because if you think about often when we talk about HR challenges and you know keeping people in organizations, it's actually bad design, really. So even thinking like that changes everything, to be honest about it. And it's actually one of the three mindsets I talk about in the book is how can HR professionals think more like designers, right? Um, and through that process improve, re-energize, reimagine some of those initiatives that didn't quite get there, right? You know, we've all had those. I'm sure everybody out there has had those types of initiatives. Um, and it's really, really important, particularly today, because I think you know, in this new age of AI, you know, technological change, people and the key people that are driving our business are absolutely more important, right? Those core people within our business that it's going that ultimately helps to drive the growth of that business. We really need to design you know our organizations in the best possible way to get the best out of those people.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

So part of your answer there, did you say that it's not so much about um having a strategy to keep your people around for long term is that it's more about how you treat your people? Did I hear that?

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Yeah, it's more designing how you treat your people, right? And what I mean by that is um if I think about some of the work we've done and you take this idea of a value proposition, right? Yeah. Um, people talk about employee value propositions, but really they're not thinking about it as a value proposition. You know, uh what I mean by that is thinking about a value proposition as something you're trying to sell, right? That's that's a big difference to thinking about oh, a value proposition that we improve slightly, right? So even within our work, we've identified 20 core areas that will keep people within an organization, right? Very, very simply. And oftentimes, and just to give you a sense of what I mean by this idea of designing, uh, oftentimes a leadership team will have a totally different perspective on the five or six elements of that proposition that are actually important to people and that keep them in an organization versus the actual people that are in that organization, right? So there's your gap between, you know, leadership and core team, and that's an example of poor design, right? And it's also an example of even just the power of thinking in a design way and to understand more deeply those individuals, right? You know, and to go much deeper in terms of their drives, their motivations, etc. And then linking those two things together is really, really powerful. Um, and I think it's one thing to have a value proposition, it's other thing to have a purposely designed one, right? Um, so I think you know, when I talk about strategy, it's it's really around this design-led idea, right? Um, and making sure that that design is obviously relevant for people, but it's also feature focused as well. And it's one of the reasons I suppose in the book I talk about three mindsets. Um, so I talk about this idea of the destination designer, the societal whisperer, and then the systems architect. So it kind of covers the I call it the pyramid, right? And I talked about the pyramid. I had one minute to present my book at the Disrupt HR event uh last night. And you know, I do talk about those three things because they work together to create organizations that are once more human-centered, you know, technology enabled, but societal focused, right? So that's if you have those three mindsets, you get to those three parts of what a real future fit organization looks like. So that's the I'm not going to say the book solves all the problems of the world, but it's definitely a toolkit for thinking very clearly, you know. Um, and I always use the Wizard of Oz analogy where you know Dorothy has just landed in you know in Oz and she opens the door into this technicoler world. And that's really what this book tries to do. It's to give you a technicoler 360 perspective on the now and next of work, you know, and hopefully I've succeeded in that. It sounds like a when I say it say it out loud, it sounds like a big uh a big thing to try to do. Uh but if I'm partially get there, I've I've done okay, you know.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

I love that. I love that. Um, and listen, it's just just for clarity there, uh, I'm not a mean man. I gave Barry two minutes. Okay, okay. Um, and and what what two minutes it was, by the way. We're we're doing like high fives, and Barry had like everybody up uh uh uh all the crowd were up and they were doing the high fives, and it was it was a lot of fun. Um and my copy of the book says to my very, very, very best friend. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, well you did tell me to say that.

Flexible Work And The Presence Trap

SPEAKER_02 10:25

I did tell me to say that. Um okay, so you you paint a very honest picture of the current reality of work. Uh from what you're seeing, what are what are leaders most in denial about when it comes to how work has already changed?

SPEAKER_00 10:44

That's a really, really good question. I'm I'm really interested in the, you know, I talk about this flexi form of working as one of the big metaways in the book. Uh, and I'm really interested in the gap between leadership's approach to flexible working and you know, people at work's approach to flexible working, you know. So in Ireland and actually in in the UK as well, you know, we're seeing I'm not uh people are talking about this rollback, it's not quite like that, it's more like a more formalized approach to flexible working, right? Um, and much more of a clearly understood way of working, right, in organizations. But I think what's important that leaders really need to understand, and again, if I come back to that designer mindset, what they've actually done there is they're taking a performance criteria, right, if I'm wearing my designer's mindset, and they're making it less optimal for other people, right? So, what often will happen in that instance is somebody will change one of those parameters like flexible working. So they might, for example, move from three days, you know, working from home to two days working from home. Now, the reality is it will take probably 12 months for that impact of that performance indicator as a dissatisfier to really head home, right? And you're gonna see a lot of that, I think, over the next year or two, as organizations have said, well, we need people here, blah, blah, blah. You know, so that's a big one for me. This idea of presence versus performance, right, is a big one. Um, and I think it's a great example of not thinking about these things as a performance you know, factor, right, and not thinking like a designer. So that's a big one for me. I think the second thing for me then obviously is properly getting heads around this human machine way of working, right? That's a big one. Um, and if I think about most of the organizations we were working with, you're you're into that. I'm gonna say pilot stroke early integration phase of this kind of way of working. But the reality is a lot of people are using AI at this moment in time. Um I'm uh really interested around the gap between thinking about human capability and skills development and what I would call human expansion. So that multiplication of human and machine uh to actually expand people's minds, not to basically decrease their cognitive function. So a lot of the research we're seeing out there at the moment really highlights if we're using things like AI in our own way over a long period of time, it actually has a cognitive declination function on our brains, right? So I don't know if you know this, but if you're there's a lot of research out there, even it was done probably in the 2020, 21, 22. The more we use things, simple things, right, like uh GPS in your car, you're actually having a net detrimental effect on your spatial reasoning, right? Yeah. Now that sounds really scary when you start thinking about it, and then you multiply that by other autonomous tools. So I think a big gap for me is putting the right frameworks in place to use that machine-human interface in the right way that expands human beings, right? Um, I wrote an article recently actually around the 12 design principles for the you know the human machine age. And it was really interesting because when I started looking around, there wasn't really much there to kind of pull from, right? So, you know, some would say I pulled it out of my own proverbial uh to get it out there. So I think that's a that's a really, really big one for me uh on that side. I think the third one for me then is really this idea of moving away from initiatives and into this broader concept of a strategic way of working, you know, because if you think even about you know, people listening there from an HR perspective have been hit by a lot. They're been hit by DNI, skills-based organizations, AI technology, blah, blah, blah. And the better way to think about it, so if I'm wearing my systems architect mindset, is to think about that work has actually jumped onto a new S-curve, jumped onto a new level of performance. And it's almost like we need to recreate the dictionary, you know, for the world of work. And we need to reintegrate all these things into the way of doing things, right? Yeah. So, for example, if we're talking about leadership, instead of talking about, you know, neurodiversity, you know, inclusive practice, blah, blah, blah, what is the new leadership look like? And what are the elements that make that up? And that becomes our way of leadership, as opposed to here's a load of initiatives that together make up leadership, right? It's a very different way of thinking about things. And I think that's a challenge for me. Is the third challenge is that idea of integrating all of these things into a new way of doing things.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

And leadership is potentially in crisis in a few years' time because um young people are not being hired, entry-level people are not going to the workforce anymore, they're being replaced by uh AI functions in in many instances. 30% of middle management roles right now could be replaced by organizations if they choose to do them, but many are trying to upskill or reskill. So, what one big crisis for leadership is um who's gonna replace the guys who are there at the moment. What do we do about that?

Human Machine Work And Ideality

SPEAKER_00 15:29

These are big questions. Yeah. I think I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna start by talking about ideality. Um, it's one of the big trends I talk about in the book. And again, I'm coming back to my uh systems mindset, uh systems architect mindset. So if you think about I was evolving a number of projects in this over the years, if you think about the evolution of technology, um, it's ultimately going to this concept of ideality, which really means things doing things by themselves, right, at zero cost and available all of the time. Right. So if you think about AI, all of these various technologies, they're bringing us into this technological ideality, right? If we want to call it that. Um, my big concern actually is our conscious approach to leadership hasn't isn't evolving at the same pace as this move towards ideality. So that's that's that's a big concern. I think when we talk about leadership, I think we have to talk about it more as a competency these days and think it about as leadership being more democratized across multiple individuals as opposed to centralized on core people, right? Um, so what's really interesting to me is even in this age of big impacts around AI, we are also getting this massive increase in the creation of cooperatives and collective type organizations, right? Organizations where everybody technically is a leader within that organization and where everybody has an ownership of that organization. So I think there's a couple of big things that leaders need to think about. One is you know, stop thinking about leaders as people and thinking about as a competency shared by multiple people. Because if you even look at the younger generations, it's not that they don't want to lead because a lot of people from the research make those conclusions. I don't believe that's true. I think what they have is a different perspective on leadership, is so in other words, they're happy to lead at certain points and on certain projects and on certain types of work, right? So that is also really, really important. For me, all of this comes back to what type of organizations are we trying to build. And it's really interesting because I love music, and um, you know, anytime I do a talk, I always bring out these two bands, right? Radiohead, I'm sure you know well, um Bill. Um I just have a funny feeling you like Radiohead, but there you go, versus this band called Velvet Sundown, which is really bad name, but it's a fully AI generated business, right? And I always play two pieces of music from both bands, and I ask everybody, look, what do you prefer? Like, what do you actually like here? And everybody without Phil says, Look, Radiohead, that music is, you know, I played the Kid A album, right? And they go, Wow, that's you know, and I said the reality is that album is this perfect blend of human and machine, creating new types of artwork that wouldn't have existed before, versus you know, this autonomous droning crappy band, right? That might sound okay for a quick listen in the bathroom in the morning, but not for anything else. And for me, it's the same thing when it comes to organizations. I think we have to start making conscious decisions around the type of companies that we want to create. And if I think if we get this human-machine interface right, I think it should be less around talking about replacement or even reshapement and talking about expansion of humans, right? And I think I have a just a funny feeling, right, from some of my research is that that's actually the path of real competitive differentiation. Because if everybody's using the same tools in AI and they're all using the same approaches, it becomes another plateau of performance. But it's very hard at this moment in time to quantify that impact of human and machine, you know. So I always like to say, imagine if your organization was Radiohead and you came out with this incredible album, many people would love that album, right? Same thing. Yeah, yeah. So I think we need to really stand back and go, yes, we can replace some of these roles. And I don't think it's quite as easy as people make it out. And most people talking about these changes are people selling AI, let's be honest, right? Um, so I think the bigger question for me is what type of organizations are we trying to create that still gives us this level of competitive differentiation, but with this idea of human expansion between human and machine, that's the big one. Um, and you know, if we're serious about a society that we want to all live in with all the crap that we're dealing with, you know, I think they're big questions. And somebody asked me about you know gender balance and inclusion, they're absolutely really important, right? But actually, the biggest inclusion challenge of our age is the inclusion of human beings in an autonomous age. That's the big one. Yep. Everything else is like a lower level challenge, which are absolutely things that we need to solve, but they they pale in comparison to this human, you know, machine concept, right? And my worry is that the people who are selling this stuff are shouting the loudest, you know, obviously highlighting all of the benefits, the efficiencies, the technological ideality. But as we all know, the benefits of these new technologies far outweigh the negatives at the start of their evolution. Two or three years in. So take the combustion engine as an example, or I take social media as an example. Yep. As we use those technologies more and more, much bigger harms are created. So when people ask me, Oh, do you think AI would be a good thing or a bad thing? or I say it'll be both. So AI will have an equal and opposite impact on the negative side of things as much as it has on the positive side. And I think we have to be recognized, recognize that, and then design accordingly. Um, so it's up to, you know, you take our organization, it's up to us to decide are we stopping taking on graduates, you know. But to me, that's a failure of imagination. I'd be asking the question what if we had graduates using the best possible autonomous tools? What could we do? Right? What experiments could we run? What new innovations could we create? You know, forget about roles, what new skills could we develop? What new services could we develop for our clients? You know, AI's not going to do that. It will help to deliver those services at speed, at zero cost, and all this kind of good stuff. But that's the magic for me, you know. But I think I started with a long answer, but it's it's a it's a big area as you would imagine at the moment. But I always come back to that point. I would prefer a kiddie album than an album from this band called Velvet Sundine, which in itself is such a bad name. I kind of inside I die a little bit when I say the name, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Okay, so uh I'll follow up to that. Um if Future Work World was a song, what what song would it be and why?

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Oh god. I'm going to say radio had all you can leave behind. Okay. Because if if you do your um musical research, um a lot of people will say that that is really the first. meta modern album. Right. So the first album that plays to both human and machine. Um and plays it into a way that when you listen to it first, it sounds totally different to anything you've heard before. But as you get used to it, it brings you to new places. And that's really what I would love our future work world to be ultimately.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have our sound bite from today's podcast episode.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I was going to say I did all of that talking and that's the only thing you're going to the the uh the book introduces practical models developed by the future work institutes.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Why do you love working here?

Inside The Future Of Work Institute

SPEAKER_00 22:40

What what what's what's so special about about the Institute um I do come back to the you know it's funny I'm going to I'm going to go on another long winded story. Sorry Bill I know you're slightly hung over from last night as well. Certainly not listeners. I've had the full Irish experience I think it's safe to say last night I was just surprised you were you didn't you know partake in some kind of a band you know singing at some point. But anyway yeah no I think um I I I'm going to talk about as the example because it's always been the thing in my head that drives the future work institute. So I don't know if you you or your listeners know anything about hut couture right um you know and I'm sure you know we have all had those fathers that would point to these mad dresses and go what the hell is that nobody's ever going to wear that thing. And it's really hoture really is a is this idea of innovation. It's to present new images to the world and so that then trickles down into other designers designing things that people will actually wear you know more practical stuff. But the whole couture part of things is really around challenging it's around bringing new images to people. It's around bringing new stories to people that might yet exist. And that's really what I love about what we do in the Future Work Institute because you know I know I know you're big into your science fiction as well and we've actually we've done a number of different projects you know we call them immersive storytelling immersive storytelling projects but really what they are is they're presenting well crafted potential futures of work for organizations that we work with. And then through that process what they're actually doing is thinking about elements of that design and what it means to their world. So that's the haute couture connection right it's like hot couture to street fashion and actually in the book sorry keep coming out of the book I am trying to pitch the book as you know Bill and in the book actually there's actually you've got you got a new book out yeah yeah I do yes yeah it's called Future Work World uh so I was going to read the inside flop there. So the but the the big thing for me is there's actually nine jumps into the future throughout the book. And they're designated by these black hole jumps right and that's really important to me because I think um part of our our role is to present these pictures it doesn't matter if they're right or wrong but they're presenting opportunities for innovation for organizations that they can adapt into their world and that's what I love most about the kind of work that we do. And I always come back to that it's it's really funny I was a big fan of um Alexander McQueen and John Galliano these guys for their artistry and their craft you know and that was right at the the core of the idea behind the Future Work Institute was to be this innovation playground you know challenging concept that some sometimes people will go that's a bit mad uncomfortable when people say that because madness is what drives us on to something else. So that that's really what what really interests me about you know the work that we do here.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

Yeah. So when you and I first spoke um which listen is uh Barry and I already know each other a couple of weeks but I love this guy.

Future Tools And Story Objects

SPEAKER_00 25:27

That's true actually yeah it feels it is weird actually because it does feel as though we know each other longer. I don't know I don't I don't know have you got some weird psychological trick happening Jedi mind trick but it seems to have kind of connected maybe we were Jedi's in a previous life together I don't know but in that first conversation you mentioned that you you've been doing some research around uh 100 tools of the future that the you know uh years in the future uh what what those tools look like that that that employees will be that we will be using yeah that's that sort of stuff floats my boat uh can you can you tell us listeners a bit about that yeah actually you know and it's it's funny so if you there's nine jumps in the book right but the concept behind the broader idea is that there will be a website very soon hopefully um that will almost be like a museum for the objects of the future of work um so ideally 100 over the next period of time we've got about 40 developed um and they're all different aspects of those three W's right so one for example is immersive induction right another one is this platform called Ludge right another one is this model called disposable workers right so they're all fictional objects at one three in 10 years out that challenge people to think differently about what they do. And um interesting enough in the book actually even the jumps I talk about using them as inspirations in your workshops or your meetings to think differently about the particular thing that you're working on. So I I I love the idea of the weenie I don't know if you know what a weenie is what's in the book as well it's a Disney developed concept and so basically any Disneyland castle is a weenie right and what a weenie is it's something that draws your attention to it it's there no matter where you are in the park you can still see this weenie and it will pull you towards it. There's like this natural pull towards a weenie and you know one of the things that we're really interested in is using objects as narrative forms to challenge people around the design of what they do right yep and you know it's again it's a broader design concept you see mostly used in theatrical and theme park design um but we would use it ourselves within the Future Work Institute to challenge a perspective right so it's so funny when you bring an object in people critique the object not the person who created the object right and that's it just I'm putting that's a very subtle difference but you know what I'm talking about and it enables proper debate and discussion around oh actually what if we did something like that in our organization it doesn't have to be all of that because some of it's a bit out there some of it's a bit mad so for example one of my favorite ones actually probably spent more time on it than a lot of parts in the book I talk about uh there's a fictional um review in the book uh it's between two people you know you go for a yearly review but it's called the transformation index okay and there's four elements to the transformation index and I won't say too much about it but the whole idea is that you're measured based on your level of transformation of self, of the team of your organization of society. Right now that sounds like a massive stretch but actually it's probably an opportunity for people to think differently about performance reviews right and that's what I mean about these weenie type ideas. They're challenging ideas to you know create different perspectives different avenues on things. So hopefully that that's good enough of an illustration you'll have to buy the book to get more information on those particular objects not not not me I've got a copy of this my very very best friend. I know and I should have actually charged you for that one that's the that's the hundred that's the 100 euro version with the signature so hopefully all that makes sense because sometimes I do say these things and people go what the hell is he talking about but you you I hope you get the concept um coming from a sci-fi background I'm sure you do that.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Barry I've got some more questions for you. However we have a strict format here I understand I've given you more than that terrible five minutes that you get to disrupt talk.

Final Takeaways And How To Connect

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Well actually you know can I just take up not ahead a minute and a half I think for the I did this the time myself right so you've you so now in a minute and a half and now you've cut me to 20 something minutes so I'm starting to feel a little bit uh put out we've done nearly 900 of these episodes on the HL chat that's fair enough we we know our sweet spot yeah yeah in other words you know when people stop listening to the crazy person you're interviewing and I get it so so with that said I I'm gonna abandon the other questions I wanted to ask you instead of turning it over to you what my question I guess before we wrap up is um what else what what what else would you like to share with our listeners today and of course as part of that um how can how can folks connect with you and get a copy of the book oh yeah absolutely yeah look the big thing for me right and I know I don't want to come out come across as something trite right but we're definitely moving into I'm gonna call it jumping the curve we're moving into this new curve of work right so if I'm wearing my systems mindset we're jumping into this new curve and a lot of people I know a lot of your viewers out there and listeners will you know are sick to hearing about HR as being this that and the other for me the opportunity for HR is to strategically design future work worlds right but in order to do that they're going to need to adopt a much broader mindset. They're going to have to apply thinking and tools that they're not comfortable with and I think if they do that they will be able to reimagine and imagine new avenues new pathways new competitive advantages for the people and for their organizations. You know that to me is the most important thing and that's what the the book ultimately tries to achieve and um 100% you know anybody out there you can see me on LinkedIn Barry Winkles you'll see me there website Barrywinkles.com future work institute uh CPL and uh future work world the book it's available everywhere globally it's published by Wiley um so everything is in there so I do think though the big thing for me is fundamentally there's an opportunity for HR to adopt this broader mindset and create really exciting future work worlds that work for all yeah wonderful well that just leads me to say for this particular episode I suspect I'll be getting you on again quite soon uh but for this particular episode Barry thank you very much for being my guest thanks very much Bill and listeners as always until next time happy working thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show if you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work subscribe to the show follow us on social media and visit hrgazette.com