What If Wellbeing Is A Work Design Problem with Jo Yarker

Workplace wellbeing is everywhere, yet too many programs still feel like duct tape on a deeper problem. Bill Banham sits down with Professor Jo Yarker, Professor of Occupational Psychology at Birkbeck University of London and managing partner at Affinity Health at Work, to get practical about what actually drives healthy performance and what HR leaders can do when quick fixes fail.

We dig into why the “tick box” approach breaks down, how to measure whether an intervention truly helps, and why job design often matters more than another round of stress training. Jo walks Bill through the IGLU framework, a multi-level model that looks at resources across the individual, group, leader, and organization, plus the wider world outside work. If one layer is missing, people feel exposed, and performance stops being sustainable.

From there, we get real about flexible work: when it boosts wellbeing and when it quietly creates strain as teams juggle competing needs. We also cover return to work after sickness absence, including mental health absence, and the small leadership choices that can prevent someone from feeling overwhelmed on day one. Jo shares overlooked psychological risks tied to international business travel, and we close with a forward look at healthy organizations in an AI-shaped labor market, including responsible technology, data transparency, consent, and support for different digital mindsets.

Subscribe for more conversations on workplace health, share this with an HR leader who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Background

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. Hello, listeners. This is your host today, Bill Bannham. And joining me on the show this time is Professor Joe Yorker, Professor of Occupational Psychology over at Birkbeck University of London. She's also the managing partner at Affinity Health at Work and co-director of London Centre for Work and Health. With over 25 years of experience as a chartered and registered occupational psychologist, Joe's work sits at the intersection of research, policy and practice, helping organizations design healthier, more sustainable working lives. Her research has informed national guidance and has been funded by bodies including the World Health Organization, the National Institute for Health and Care Research, and the Health and Safety Executive. And in this episode, listeners, we're going to explore what really drives healthy performance, how to implement workplace health interventions that actually stick, and what HR leaders need to understand about system level change in 2026 and beyond. Joe, how are you doing? Welcome to the show today.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a real joy to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

So, as I like to do on this show, before we go any further and get into the meat of the conversation, uh, I guess the first question for you is uh just a bit of a get-to-know you. Uh, what else? What what what did I miss there? Um, anything else you'd like to add about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Oh, goodness, I think it was a a really fulsome introduction. I think one of the things I'm really lucky to do is work with people across different professions um in both research and practice. And so I think it's those those broad collaborations which I'd I'd love to note up front, which help us do the work that we do.

The Tick Box Wellbeing Trap

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Okay, wonderful. Thank you. So let's start with a big picture question then. You've spent 25 plus years studying work, health, and well-being, Jo. From your perspective, what are organisations still getting wrong about workplace well-being?

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Well, I think it's important to note that we've come an awful long way, and it is brilliant to see such uh a shining light on keeping people well in the workplace and good intentions, good efforts. In terms of what's going wrong though, I think we have a still a tick-box mentality a lot of the time that we see trying to put in place um quick fixes that don't really get to the heart of the problem. Um, and I also think that there's a lack of measurement in terms of really trying to understand what's making a difference. So we put things in place, but we don't measure whether it's making the impact or whether it's having the right effect with the people we want to support.

Measurement And Meaningful Outcomes

SPEAKER_02 3:09

There is often a disconnect, Joe, between well-being initiatives and job design. What does the evidence tell us about the difference between surface level interventions and systemic change?

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Yeah, and I think that really points to that um that element about measurement as well. So when when we look at what's going on in many organizations, we can see there's a whole range of different initiatives, um, but they're perhaps targeting the wrong outcomes that the organization wants to achieve. And so, really, what we need to be seeing, and and organizations are starting to move towards this, some of them very, very well, is understanding what the problem is and is that a work design problem, or is it a health promotion, healthy habits problem? Um, and then matching the intervention or the activities to that. And um, we certainly see a lot of well-being activity being focused on education, trying to fix the individual, trying to equip the individual with new skills, knowledge to manage stress, be more resilient when actually some of the challenges are much deeper. They're about how work is designed, organized, our work demands, and um I suppose almost the finances around work as well that that need to be addressed.

The IGLU Model Explained

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Okay, very good. Thank you. Let's talk about your IGLU framework now, Joe. So you you helped to pioneer the IGLU approach, uh, which includes individual, group, leader, and organizational resources. Can you walk us through the model and explain why looking at all four levels is critical for sustainable impact?

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Yeah, so the IGLU framework looks across, actually looks across five levels if we think about what's going on outside the organization as well, because we know that our working lives are one part of our our complex um complex lives. And so we bring an awful lot of ourselves and what's going on outside work into work, but also we've got lots of things that we can draw on outside of work that can help us with our with our performance and sustainability of our jobs. And so when we're looking at our igloo, what we're what we're talking about are the resources that we can access at each of those different levels. So if you imagine somebody in an Igloo and um they're in out there, there's lots of cold elements. If you've got each of those building blocks, you can be in your igloo, you can be safe, you can thrive. If any one of your building blocks are missing, then you're exposed to the elements. And we can take that analogy to think about the resources that somebody needs in their workplace. So at an individual level, we need to understand our health needs and our work needs and be able to voice them articulately and access the support we need or the help we need, the resources we need. But we also need our groups to function well. We need our groups and our colleagues to step in when we need support, but we need to have open relationships with them to be able to do our jobs well and to manage our health. We need our leaders to provide us with the support that um that we need to thrive in our workplaces, and that means we need our leaders to behave in ways that protect and promote our health and well-being, that they signpost relevant resources, that they support us in managing the various psychological and physical risks in our workplace. And then we need our organizational policies and practices to really wrap around and ensure that they're both compassionate but also fair and effective. Um, and with that, we need our health professionals and our work professionals to be able to step in where appropriate. And then outside, we need to know that our health pathways are accessible to us, that there are charities that can step in and support us when needed, but also we can think of the role our families and friends play as well. And when we think of all of those different levels, we've got both resources and also demands that we might be facing. So we need to really think about this systemic approach that um that considers all of those different levels when we're thinking about what helps us perform and thrive.

Flexible Work Benefits And Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Okay, thank you very much. Uh, you've trialed flexible work interventions with uh Lindlease to understand what works for whom and under what conditions, Joe. What what does the research say about when flexible flexibility enhances well-being and and also maybe when when it maybe unintentionally creates strain?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Yeah, it's a great question. And that was something we tried a long while back, and we've seen a range of different organizations bring in different types of flexible work now. I think um one of the things that was really interesting in that that project that you just mentioned was how we often think that flexible work can't work in some environments. And um, what we were doing was seeing whether it could work on a building site where people need to be on site and where project managers, different trades have different requirements of their time on site. And um, what we found there was for individuals, it was really important that they recognised and started to learn what worked for them and learn to have conversations about how their needs would were perhaps different to others. So, for example, thinking about how you might describe what will work best for you and why that might work best for you. For example, coming in at nine o'clock, being able to go to the gym in the morning and recognizing the benefits that that brings to your performance over the day. Um, we also heard that others were able to take their kids to school for the first time and they hadn't done that in 10 years. And so there are lots of really great benefits that people found from flexible work, and we can see that through lots of reports coming out now. But I think one of the challenges that did come up was the conflict that can come when everybody has competing needs and when leaders aren't um aren't trained or or given the time to manage those conversations. So if we think of a team of 12 starting to work flexibly, that's 12 conversations that need to happen and constantly looking to see well, how does one body's one some somebody's um flexibility offset the needs of others? And so that um that real skill that comes in managing different relationships and managing the individual within the team is something that many leaders find natural, but actually a lot of leaders also find really challenging. And it's even more challenging when you don't have time to do it in the working day. So those were certainly two big learnings that came out of that work.

Line Managers Need Time To Manage

SPEAKER_02 10:05

So, does that mean that uh the best leaders find ways to be more flexible for some of their uh uh employees and less flexible for others, depending on what what their direct um hires that they're the folks who are working for them require? But tell us a bit more because it doesn't sound like a universal approach.

Return To Work Done Well

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah, so not a new universal approach. I think it's having very clear boundaries of what is feasible and having continual open conversations because there are some forms of flexibility that would be baked into contracts, baked into ways of working, and then there might be other forms of flexibility that are more nuanced or ad hoc as well. And so a good leader not only um understands their team and the needs of their team, but also has the the skills to bring the team together to so that they can recognize where there might be need for give and take at different situations. But layered onto that, I think what was really clear was having um organisational guidance to set those parameters around what is um is possible within that working context. And also, I think I can't emphasize enough the amount of time that we need to also allow for line managers to manage. And I think that all too often when you see reports of how much time managers get to do these sorts of things, it's very, very scant. And if we want to create inclusive and flexible environments, we also need to put time aside um to facilitate those conversations.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Uh let's talk now about return to work after absence, Joe. You've developed toolkit supporting return to work following sickness absence, including mental health absence. What are what are the most common mistakes leaders make in return to work conversations?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Uh I think one of the things that's so challenging is that people don't want to say the wrong thing. And so what happens is that they don't say anything at all, and that there's nothing worse than that. And so if we think about a an absence journey, often at the beginning of that absence, people don't want to step in and and worry or bother the the individual who's off on sickness absence, and so they can then start to feel um ignored or or wondering what people are saying about their absence while they're off work. And so having an open conversation or communicating to say, how would you like to stay in touch? What would you like me to share with your colleagues? All of those sorts of open things at the beginning can be really helpful. But then we also find that during absence, um, the only thing that many employees receive is the HR policies. And um what we hear from employees is that they would like to know that people are thinking of them, that they'd like to stay in the loop, and that contact over the period of absence can be really key. And then on their return, one of the biggest mistakes that we hear is um coming back to 100% of workload or coming back and um everyone not knowing quite what to say or how to acknowledge things. And so what we would really suggest is that there is a real preparation stage where the manager really carefully thinks about what that first day, first week, first month is going to look like and has the conversation with the with the returning employee about how they might like to manage it. What are they concerned about, what might work well, and um, how can that first day, week, month be structured? Because I think one of the key things it always rings in my ear was um somebody who was describing their their return after a period of cancer treatment, and they said they got to the car park three or four times before they could actually make it into the the front of the building. And um, you just think that that doesn't need to be that hard. They've already done the hard hard graft with the cancer treatment and they got themselves into the car park. And how can we as um organizational professionals put round the structures such that they feel supported to to come in through the door on the first day to to have time with colleagues and and make those early conversations much more um easy instead of um uh something that people are worried about and therefore don't say anything at all.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

So in order to help avoid that feeling of overwhelm, um, it sounds like it's pretty important that from day one there are one-on-one conversations between the manager and and between that returning employee, perhaps even before they're back in the office. What's your take?

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Yeah, absolutely. Every bit, every situation is different, and that's why it's so complicated. But certainly we would recommend that there's early conversation about what that return might look like. Um, that might be something that's done by email. We also know that sometimes managers and and the the returning employee might have had a poor relationship and therefore is the manager the best placed person to do that, maybe not. Um, but having a conversation about what do you feel able to do? What are you concerned about, how can we support that? Um, and remembering that whatever is um is agreed and whatever an individual feels is um within their bounds of capacity in that first week may well be very different on week two and week three. So we go in with a very flexible approach, knowing that we'll constantly revisit um what's working for the individual, what's working for the team, such that we can be responsive to individuals' needs, but also the the rest of the team's needs.

Hidden Risks In Business Travel

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Okay, uh my next question for you is a topic that I don't remember ever discussing in maybe 900 episodes on this show. Um and and this is this is one for you listeners if you do lots of traveling uh for work. Um your award-winning research into international business travel highlighted overlooked psycho psychological risks, Joe. What should global organizations be doing to better protect traveling employees?

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Um I will talk to this, but this is Rachel's research, actually. So um this is this was a piece of work that was led by my colleague Rachel Lewis. And I think there were so many different things that came out out of this in terms of um where people are travelling, they might be more likely to take risks that they wouldn't take when they are um in their standard workplaces. I think one of the things that really sticks in my mind here was um how women that were travelling were less likely to go out for dinner, for example. And um, therefore they're they're eating very poorly and eating room service in an isolated way because of the um not knowing their local environments and not feeling that they they were safe going out uh on their own after after a period of work. And I think those were really interesting elements for me because they have significant, if you're traveling a lot, they have a significant impact on your your health and well-being. But also I think one of the things that came out was um this notion of of pleasure and how so many people combine when they when they travel a lot and and they want to make to make the most of that travel, they will combine um some form of leisure activity after their business travel um to really make the most of the the trips that they're having. So a whole range of different things that that came out of of that project, particularly looking at how we can improve some of the things that um that individuals face when they're traveling.

Healthy Work In An AI Economy

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Cool. We are already coming towards the end of this particular conversation. Um before we wrap up, just a couple more questions for you. Uh we we have done well so far on this chat, not to mention AI, but here we go, uh, because I can't avoid talking about AI on this show anymore. Um in the context of the future of healthy work, Joe, if we look ahead, say, five years, particularly in an AI-shaped labour market, what will define a healthy organization? And what should progressive HR leaders be prioritizing right now?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

That is a good question. We did some work for the CIPD looking at the responsible use of technology. And um, I think there are various things that come up. So, one certainly using AI tools in a diligent way, being very clear that people know how their data is being used, um, and ensuring that people that our HR professionals have those skills to recognise where consent and data migrations come into play because it's it's incredibly complex. Um, but I also think that there's something about how um how we as people leaders are supporting our younger people going into the workplace. So we know that lots of our research jobs, um, our knowledge mobilization jobs that we would have once given to our junior employees can now be done quite quickly with with some of the A to I tools that we have. So, really thinking strategically about how we can use AI to um propel their development and still employ but upskill quicker, I think is going to be something that that is coming to the fore and really, really interesting there. And then the third thing around that is um we did a project looking at digital mindsets and I um am quite a digital dinosaur. I have to pull myself into to these conversations and they boggle my brain sometimes. And so um I'm very aware that it can be easy to um to be resistant to technology and what does that mean for those people who do find technology difficult to engage with? Um, and the project with digital mindsets was really interesting because it allowed us to identify how and develop a scale which um identified how people might struggle with engaging with new technologies. And I think as we're changing the way that the work is done, we need to be really careful because that that drive is made by people who are very confident in technological tools, and there are many, many people who find it incredibly scary, incredibly daunting, and can do it, but they need different support to bring them on the journey. And I think we need to be very mindful of that.

How To Connect And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Excellent. And just finally, for today, Joe, if uh if our listeners want to learn more about what you get up to and want to connect with you, uh what what are the best ways for them to do that? Is that LinkedIn? Are you super cool and all over TikTok and Instagram and places?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Tell us what no, I'm definitely not. I think my my girls would be horrified if I turned up on um on TikTok. But I on LinkedIn would be wonderful. Um, or we have a website with all of our our research and our research, our our reports are all free to access. So, yes, please do dive in there and we have a big comprehensive library, or I'll be delighted to catch up on email or LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

And I can uh I can attest that Joe is responsive on LinkedIn because I reached out and she responded. So there we go. Uh, that just leaves me to say for today. Joe, thank you very much for being my guest.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Thank you ever so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

And listeners, as always, until next time, happy working.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Thanks for listening to the HR chat show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette? And remember, for what's new in the World of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.