Episode 900 with Bill Banham and Steve Foulger

Welcome to a landmark episode of HRchat. As we celebrate Episode 900 and a decade of conversations with the world's leading HR thinkers, host Bill Banham is joined by longtime friend, strategic HR leader, and DisruptHR co-organizer Steve Foulger.

Bill and Steve reflect on how the HR profession has evolved over the past ten years, separating genuine progress from recycled ideas wrapped in new terminology.

The conversation explores why employee listening has become more effective through pulse surveys, how organizations are replacing annual performance reviews with regular one-to-one conversations, and why learning and development is increasingly focused on building capability rather than simply delivering training.

Steve also tackles one of today's biggest topics: generative AI in HR. Steve explains why AI should not yet be trusted as a standalone solution for compensation benchmarking, how poor-quality data can produce highly convincing but inaccurate recommendations, and why pay transparency makes human judgement more important—not less.

The discussion then shifts to leadership, productivity, and sustainable performance. Steve introduces his practical "Five to Twenty-Five" approach for helping teams prioritize work that either generates revenue, reduces costs, or saves valuable time. They also explore why energy management is becoming a critical leadership capability in an era of constant pressure and rapid change.

Finally, Bill and Steve discuss what HR can genuinely learn from elite sport without falling into tired clichés, examine the ongoing debate around culture fit versus culture add, and share advice for the next generation of HR leaders navigating an increasingly complex profession.

In this episode you'll discover:

• Why Episode 900 is the perfect time to reflect on HR's biggest changes
• Where the profession has genuinely improved over the past decade
• Why pulse surveys work—and where they don't
• How regular one-to-one conversations are replacing annual appraisals
• Why AI cannot yet replace human expertise in compensation benchmarking
• How pay transparency raises the importance of trustworthy workforce data
• Why energy management may be leadership's next competitive advantage
• Steve's practical "Five to Twenty-Five" framework for improving business performance
• Lessons HR can borrow from elite sport without copying the clichés
• Why culture fit and culture add should complement rather than compete with one another
• Advice for emerging HR leaders on staying adaptable, collaborative, and human

If you're interested in HR strategy, workforce planning, leadership, organizational performance, AI in HR, employee experience, or the future of work, this is an episode you won't want to miss.

Transcript

Episode 900 And Big Milestones

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Welcome to a very, very, very special episode of the HR Chat Podcast. This, ladies and gentlemen, is episode 900, a milestone that gives us the perfect excuse to reflect on how the world of work has evolved and more importantly, where it's heading next. 900 episodes. That actually happens to coincide pretty much to the day with uh 10 years of the HR chat pod. Um so I should just start by thanking you, the listeners, for your continued support to all of the wonderful hosts of the show over the years, including Pauline, Matt, Tim, Chris, and many, many more. Um and uh I was looking back over the list of some of the guests that we've had on the show over those 10 years and 900-ish episodes. And they're from brands such as Microsoft, IBM, Amazon Web Services, SAP, uh ADP, HL Tech Conference, Sherm, Gartner, McKinsey, Deloitte, Disrupt, UPS, NASA, Virgin, Ceridian, Bright Horizons, NFP, Wireless Logic, Pharma, AWS, uh, Government of Canada, Make a Wish Foundation, Coca-Cola, and so many more. And some of the names that you might recognise include uh Josh Person, Dave Ulrich, Jennifer McClure, Perry Timms, John Ingham, David Rock, Kevin Oakes, Ben Eubanks, Brian Krop, Steve Brown, the nicest man in HR on that side of the pond. Uh Tim Sackett, William Tinkup, Valerie Cabers Workman, Q Hammerani, Christina Laconey, Mary Cullen, uh Dr. Mary Collins, Carol Atkinson, Joe Yarker, Lindsay Claiborne, Danny Stacy, Chris Locke, Ankita Podder, Barry Winkless, John Kennedy, Russell Robinson, James Davies, Rob Rossenthal, Tom McCartney, Ben Mones, David Duckworth, Steve Folger, Chris Bjorling, of course, Jessica Kriegel, Roger Clements, Al Kingsley, and the awesome Stephen Shadletsky. That is a pretty impressive list of brands and guests we've had on this show over the years, and I am terribly, terribly grateful, as are the other members of the team. We hope that you continue to enjoy our little podcast. Uh, we've been going for a while and we continue to do so in the uh the next landmark coming up for us, of course, will be the big one thousand. So, for this particular episode, for episode 900, I'm joined by someone who has consistently challenged conventional thinking while remaining grounded in what actually works in organizations. He is an absolute gent. He is the co-organiser of Disrupt Manchester and Disrupt London with me. He is my friend, and that's Steve Forger, a strategic HR leader and CIPD fellow whose career has spanned financial services, manufacturing, technology, government, and entrepreneurial businesses. Steve has led major organizational transformations, uh, restructures, workforce redesigns, MA integrations, industrial relations and business change, while also uh overseeing functions including legal facilities, health and safety, security and operations. Many listeners to the show know Steve from the Disrupt community, where he's become renowned for asking difficult questions, cutting through the hype, and reminding HR professionals to focus on outcomes rather than trends. And just a couple of weeks ago, uh Mr. Folger was very, very brave when he took on a pretty crazy challenge at our um at our Disrupt London event in uh the centre of the city, where he uh he presented 20 slides in five minutes, rotating every 15 seconds. But he had no idea of what the slides would be until they came up on the screen. So kudos to you, Steve. And in this conversation, we're going to explore what's genuinely exciting Steve about today's HR landscape from workforce planning and energy management to high performance cultures and what concerns him, including AI hype, performative thought leadership, the decline of collaboration, and why some of HR's biggest challenges remain surprisingly unresolved. Okay, there's a lot to get through today. I hope you enjoy this conversation that I had with my friend for episode 900, Mr. Steve Folger.

Steve Folger On Career Variety

SPEAKER_03 5:13

Steve, the awesomeness Folger. Welcome back to the show and welcome to episode 900. How are you doing, my friend?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Yeah, really good, thank you, and congratulations on 900 episodes. What an effort.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

My goodness, me, that's a misspent youth, if ever I've heard of one. Um, no, it's uh it's been a journey, it's been a journey. Ten years in the coming. Um, we've had some amazing guests on the show over the years, but uh I can't think of anyone that I'd rather celebrate episode 900 with than than my very good friend Steve Forger listeners. Uh Steve, you have been on the show before, but um just as a recap beyond the introduction that I offered a moment ago, why why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself, your career background, and what gets you up in the morning?

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah, sure. So I've got an extensive career background. Um, anyone that kind of looks at my uh details will realize I've worked for all sorts of people doing all sorts of things. I've been very lucky in my career to kind of be involved in some huge groundbreaking projects, but most of it's in the world of change and transformation um uh or in the people space, or as we used to call it, HR. Um stuff that gets me up in the morning. The reason I stepped into this and stopped being a mortgage consultant over 20 years ago was because of the variety. You face something new every day, and I love variety and I love trying to solve problems.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at hrgazette.com. And now back to the show.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

I don't know if I ever knew that you're a mortgage consultant. Okay, that's interesting. That could come in handy in the future. I may come back and pick your brains, my friend. Um, okay, so here we are, episode two uh 900. Thanks again for joining us to celebrate

What HR Improves And Rebrands

SPEAKER_03 7:10

that. Well, when you look back, Steve, over your own HR career, what what are what are some of the biggest shifts that you've seen in the profession? And what do you think we've genuinely got better at?

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Um in a lot of ways the shifts haven't been huge. There's been a lot of relabeling, um, there's been a lot of talk of progress. Um, but quite often I go into support businesses, and the same old problems are already there. Definitely have seen some changes. So, what was personnel became HR. What became HR became probably about 10 different things because no one can quite agree on what the uh latest labelling is going forward. Um, I've definitely seen some very specific things. So, as you'll know, I've done quite a bit of work in the MA space. Um, and originally, when you used to go into the data rooms, there were physical data rooms for absolutely uh full of data for you to kind of review. Normally you're on a clock and you've got to get in, find out the data you needed and get out. Now they're virtual data rooms, and there's so much in the public domain you can go and find stuff out um way before a transaction starts, anyway. Um, but I think there's been some really good stuff like engagement surveys. A lot more companies now use kind of pulse. So I think engagement surveys have a place, but I think you need more regular, up-to-date information. Um, annual appraisals. I'm I'm glad to start seeing the back of those, they're becoming things like one-to-ones, um, training uh in our the way I used to see it when I was first came in, becoming proper learning and development. So I think there's there's definitely progress, and people are looking at things, and there was all sorts of things when I started, I looked at and thought, why do we do it like that? It doesn't make any sense. And I started to see some sense starting to come through. I thought it was me, but I definitely am seeing some better things coming out of the world.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

Very

Benchmarking Reality Versus AI Confidence

SPEAKER_03 8:57

good, very good. So you've said that benchmarking remains surprisingly immune to AI, and that's an interesting perspective. In a world obsessed with generative AI, why why do you think that benchmarking and learning from what other organizations are actually doing still provide such enduring value?

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yeah, I think there's two questions most organizations want answered. Um, if you look at it at a micro level, so down to an individual, everyone wants to know with whatever change or whatever's happening, what's in it for me. At an organizational level, yeah, certainly at a strategic level, it's what's everyone else doing. And benchmarking fits lovely into that space because you when you're doing compensation benchmarking, you're answering the question, what's in it for me, because you're telling someone what they're going to get paid, and at the organisational level, you're telling them what everyone else is doing. But AI is definitely something where there's a lot of noise at the moment. I'm sure we'll go on to it later. There's a lot of negative noise and a lot of positive noise. But we've been doing loads of testing recently around benchmarking, and I can tell you that AI cannot do benchmarking at the moment. I'll give you a very quick example. We found one role, and it was one role, that was 1400% out versus the real data that was out there. And in the world where we're heading, where pay transparency will put more data into the world, you'd think it'd be easier, but actually, if you don't validate the data, if you don't understand the data, it frankly becomes meaningless. And at the moment, I would say every single role we look at is out by at least 5% when you put it through the AI tools. It is getting better, but only slightly better. But it's a great example where you can't use AI as a calculator. It's not a calculator. It provides you with answers, answers it thinks you want. The problem is it provides with such confidence. Some people out there believe every answer it provides.

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Okay, so we're not there yet. How long until that calculator is reliable? What are we looking at? Are we looking at six months? Are we looking at 12 months? Are we looking at 24? Are we never going to get there? Well, for special.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

I think there will be tools that are built that will utilize AI in a really effective way. But I think we're at least five years away from a proper practical tool where it's in there. Because you're still going to have to get the data, you're still going to have to get tell it the right prompts. We're trying new prompts every day. So we literally put every role we look at through three different processes. One through the actual tools, two through AI in terms of basic prompts, what does the basic prompt for us? And then three, we're constantly wrestling with how can we get this prompt better? Because we'd love AI to be the answer. Um, but if based on our research so far and based on what we're looking at, if we're using AI in terms of the generic tools that are out there to find us the answer, it won't find it at the moment. We're years away from that. If it's about building the tools and interrogating um databases, then I don't think we're far away at all. For some organizations, they may already be there if they've got the right data already.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Do you think it's a competitive advantage, Steve, if you're a smaller company and you'd be more nimble and you can try new AI tools compared to one of the big boys that perhaps they're a bit slower, um, there'll be a lot more processes in place, that it's harder to experiment. But of course, conversely, they're all better resourced. But what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yeah, it doesn't have to be more complex, but it does tend to be. And I think that's probably comes down to the commercial reality of the world they're dealing with in. They've spent years doubling down on their tools, investing in certain ways of working to reverse out of that or to suggest suddenly that their tools aren't as valuable as they thought they were, um, doesn't make a lot of commercial sense. I remember talking to a huge organization who I won't name about uh pay transparency, and they're saying it's gonna be a brilliant opportunity for them and it's gonna make a world of difference. And I said to them, won't it kill your benchmarking overnight? And this before I'd done any of the research or gone and played around with the tools, and they said, Don't talk about that. Um, and the reality is you have to consider that you have to be future ready and you've got to do what's best for the client, you've got to do the what's best for providing answers. Not what can I do to double down on our commercial model?

Energy Management For Real Performance

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Now, one topic that you've become increasingly interested in of late is energy management. Uh, we're not talking global warming here. Um, how how is how is managing people's energy different from managing productivity or well-being? And and why do you think it's becoming such an important leadership capability?

SPEAKER_01 13:32

In some ways, I don't think it is that different. So you'll you'll know from just one of the answers I've given before, and also conversations we've had and presentations we do, I talk about the micro and the macro. The macro for me is the organization and the ecosystem and the economy it operates in, and the micro is the individual and how they operate within an organization. And I think we're always looking at what's best for you, what's best for your business, and what's best for your team. It's kind of looking across the whole piece and kind of working out. And when you're looking at productivity and you look at energy, quite often the two are interlinked. Um, obviously, we've got a world going forward where we're looking at AI coming in, we've got automation coming in, and for a lot of worlds, that's already there. You can go back hundreds of years and talk about, think about car manufacturing, how much stuff they've put into there to automate processes over time. So it's always that thing of looking at are we better placed here to upskill individuals, increase productivity, um, or can we put a machine in place here? And you have to ask that question all the time before you can kind of get to the answer. We used to say, What's your organizational design to a client? And they'd tell us what their organizational structure is. We get a structure chart, but of course, that doesn't tell us how things interact. But from an energy point of view, when they're looking at machines, when they're looking at the buildings they're operating in, they're talking about ESG, they're talking about making sure they're efficient and effective. I don't see that language being any different for an individual. How can I be efficient and effective? A very quick example. I've got a team at the moment, I focus on what we call five to twenty-five, which is five actions per day that make a commercial difference. Either makes money, saves money, or saves time. By the end of the week, you've got 25 actions you put in place that made a difference. I'd love it if they could create me all the value from doing one action every week. That'd be perfect. Be the most efficient, it'd be the most effective.

Sports Lessons Worth Keeping

SPEAKER_03 15:24

So, regular listeners of this pod will know that uh we've done loads of episodes in the past on um lessons that the corporate world can take from the world of elite sports. In fact, uh we did a whole season on this for the People in Performance pod, uh, which is another show that I co-host with the awesome Chris Björling. Um, one thing that you didn't mention earlier about yourself, in addition to being a mortgage broker and an HR Pro and a superstar and a dad and an all-round awesome bloke, is you're also a professional sportsman. Uh, uh you're a soccer player uh for our US and Canadian listeners. Um, and of course, you've spoken very positively about what organizations can get if they borrow ideas from elite sports to build those high-performing cultures. Which lessons transfer well into the workplace, Steve? And and which sporting analogies should HR probably stop using?

SPEAKER_01 16:26

I think I think the first one is to not overstate elite sport because I definitely wasn't elite sport, um, Bill. Uh, you know, I played a bit of second team football for Warsaw um at school boys and uh slightly beyond that. And then when I've got paid to play uh for a few semi-professional teams, but uh nothing beyond that. So that so the first thing is kind of let's not overstate elite sport. As you know, I've got to work with some fantastic elite sports people who've represented England in different sports, and I get to I talk to them all the time and find out about what goes on in their world and find out what can be transferred into our world. And it is an area that is kind of ripe all of the time for helping businesses think in a different way. You know, you think back to the marginal gain stuff we've talked about in the past, if you think about the fact how much mindset matters, that's the same in organizations as it's in sports. Setting targets is important, meticulous preparation is important. You can learn so much from sports stars around that. And I suppose where they have the advantage is they do a lot of practice in the week, say, for 90 minutes on a Saturday or 10 seconds over a sprint at a race. They're kind of honing themselves for that very specific time. When we're at work, there's probably an expectation we're running the speed of a hundred meter sprint for the whole of the five days we're in work, or four days if you do a four-day week. But I mean, there's a lot of nonsense as well that doesn't transfer across. And you know, I hate it when I'm sat in a meeting and I hear let's all give a hundred percent on this, or let's give 110%, which obviously is mathematically impossible. It's a game of two halves, yeah. It's all the cliches that we definitely don't need to bring away over from sport. And I think if anyone's watching the World Cup, we could also do without the hydration breaks.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

Yeah, I I I would agree with that, or quarters as they're being called, right? Um, so uh you just uh briefly mentioned the fact that you you've um you've had the opportunity to work with um a bunch of uh uh folks who uh were elite elite sports people who played for England. Um one of those is the awesome John Slightholm, um a former England rugby national player. Uh I would encourage folks to listen to HR Chat episode 760. Gosh, that was a while ago. Uh with with John. Uh absolute gentleman. It was nice to see you and him at the CIPD festival work event recently. Uh, listeners, do check that out. Anyway, continuing

Culture Add And Culture Fit Together

SPEAKER_03 18:52

through. Steve, you challenge a number of popular HR narratives because you're just that kind of guy, uh, from culture ad replacing culture fit to influences chasing algorithms instead of building communities. How dare they? Uh, do you think HR sometimes falls too quickly in love with new terminology rather than solving the underlying business problems?

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Absolutely. And like Bill, given it's the 900th episode for you today, I'd like to give you massive credit for building huge communities and disrupt through your podcasts. Um, you're always kind enough to introduce people to other people, you see where the potential value might be. There's an awful lot of people out there in your world that don't do that, and they're all about themselves, they're all about ego, and they're all about getting their next like and their next share. Um, one of the things I love spending time with you for and working with you for is the fact that you build those communities, and that's great in the um real world as well, in terms of business worlds, and that you mentioned about cultural ad and cultural fit. Yeah, I've seen a lot of people putting stuff out there about the fact that stop hiring for people with cultural fit, hire for people with cultural ad. And my view on it is really simple: you can hire for both. I think in uh football management terms, um, was it FIFA? Uh the computer game, they call it chemistry. So we can still have a diverse workforce, just like we can have a diverse football team. But if the players don't gel together and they don't fit together and they don't work together, you've got a problem. It's another analogy of bringing elite sport into kind of the world. So I think for me, it is really important to have cultural ad, but it's really important to have cultural fit as well. And I think it's about knowing which of the bits you're looking for cultural fit on and which are the bits you're looking for cultural ad on. Um and they can be exclusive. If you're not looking for a diverse workforce, you've got a problem, in my opinion. Um, so that doesn't mean you can't look for the ad, but you should be looking for is this person gonna flourish in this environment? Are they gonna add something? Are we gonna let them add something? That's where the cultural fit cultural ad starts to become attention. But I think there's a lot of noise out there. We we talk about cultural ads before we'd have just said we doesn't add value. It's a bit like when we're to pay transparency, before we'd have just said, are you advertising the salary? It's a bit like when we say, have you got a listening strategy? Before we'd have just said, have you got any feedback? Um, it we we've kind of made all of this stuff more complicated than it needs to be. And I think we do kind of get stuck up in new terminology, and again, I think that's a corporate way because everyone's trying to sell their solution and they're focused on rather than what's the best thing for the organization you work in, it's like let me sell you my solution and my terminology. And people do like to make other people feel stupid, and I don't like that.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Why do they do that, Steve? No, let's not go down that route. Uh the these episodes aren't long enough. Um, that's a conversation for another time. Um, thank you very much for your kind words just a moment ago, by the way. Um, regular listeners of this show will know that I am not, however, scared of um of uh the the occasional promo for Other episodes or other things that I'm getting up to. The most popular LinkedIn post I've had over the last couple of years, honestly, despite all those efforts to get more clicks, was a a photo I posted when we had our second child. And that got gazillions of likes and comments. So that told me all I've got to well, all I've got to do is have a new baby every year. We'll keep up on those rankings to be continued, listeners. Steve, we are already coming towards the end of this particular conversation. I now want to flip those compliments back on you. You and I have known each other for a very long time now. It wasn't super easy for me, honestly, when I moved back to the UK. I was gone for so long. I didn't have uh much of a network over here. Um I was struggling, I was missing being over in beautiful Toronto, Canada. Um, I wouldn't change anything for the world. I've now got a beautiful family here in the UK. Um, that said, um the the events that I've been involved with has have given me an opportunity to meet loads of cool people. Um, some of them, just like you said a second ago, unfortunately are in it for themselves. Um, and there are another group, a select group of people like yourself who are just awesome, authentic, genuine, kind human beings. Um, so there's going to be a question in a minute, but I just want to say uh for the record, um, so listeners, Steve and I, we've been organizing the uh disrupt HR events in London and in Manchester together now for a long time. And uh Steve's just he's just a lovely human being. Um he's great, he's he's always helpful, he's kind. Um, I've got to meet his son, who is a reflection of Steve as well, and the upbringing um the that that that Steve has has given him. Um and to top it all off, last week uh after after Disrupt London, um I missed my I missed my final trade home. Who did I call? I called Stevie F and I said, Steve, I'm in trouble. He says, Don't worry about it, mate. You can come and stay with me. You can stay in my hotel with me. Uh there's just another wonderful example of how cool Steve is. So with all that, here comes the

Advice For Authentic HR Leaders

SPEAKER_03 24:09

question. Um, Steve, as someone who's been part of the Disrupt HR movement for years, and we celebrate this 900th episode of the HR chat show, what what advice would you give to the next generation of HR leaders who want to maybe build careers based on substance, based on being authentic rather than hype? And should they focus on what over the next decade? What are those key things to get them to that point over the next decade?

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah. I mean, um, Bill, if you if you've got a spare bed in your hotel room and one of your friends is stuck, who wouldn't help someone? Um, and I think that's a good thing for kind of the next generation to focus on us on as well. You know, forget about all the hype. It's about having a great network and helping each other. You gave the wonderful opportunity for me to bring Jacob on stage, my son who you mentioned a minute ago up in Manchester, that went down really well. We got so many people coming up and talking to him and complimenting him on what a lovely young man he is, and he really is. Um, it's lovely when he's a reflection of me, but he's way better than I am. He's better at football than me as well. Um, and I think you're kind of in a situation where, as you're going forward, we can't afford to lose the human side of things. And uh there's some brilliant stuff going on at the moment um in the world where people are trying to humanize the workplace again, um, and there's a lot of people kind of trying to go the other way. That's because we're in a bit of a divisive world. So don't get caught up in the divisive world. Think about being collaborative, think about being compassionate, think about being curious, think about being adaptable, don't get bogged down in the textbooks and don't get bogged down in the hype. The best thing you can do is get out there, meet people, listen and learn, and let your gut tell you what's right. There's lots of exciting things coming ahead. You don't need to get involved in the hype. Um, a lot of the early adopters and the people who think they've got the right answers will disappear. They'll burn through their cash on solutions that were never right for everybody else, talking nonsense, while the people who've really grasped things will bring it to your door anyway.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

Wise words indeed.

Best Ways To Reach Steve

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Okay, just to wrap up today, just finally, and of course there will be links in the show notes, but uh very briefly, Steve, what are the best ways to connect with you? Is that LinkedIn? Do you want to share your email address? I bet you are all over the TikToks and the Instagrams and stuff because you're so cool. Tell us more.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah. Yeah, I'm so cool. Yeah. Um that's I'm nearly 50, Bill, and that's not been said to me for a long, long time, if ever. Um, but yeah, LinkedIn is definitely the best way to come and find me. So um, you know, I have an unusual last name. Not unusual in HR, apparently. There are a couple of other further's out there, but definitely come and find me on LinkedIn. That's by far the best way. Um, and then when we start chatting on there, I'll give you my email address and we'll kind of go from there and we'll pass out the phone number as well. But LinkedIn, definitely the way to go with me. That's where I spend a lot of my time.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

Excellent. Well, that just leaves me to say for this a very special 900th episode. Steve, I love you, man. You're you're the best, and I appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

You too, Bill. Congratulations on 900. Can't wait to see who's on a thousand.

SPEAKER_03 27:09

And listeners, as always, until next time, happy working.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show. If you enjoyed this episode, why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette? And remember, for what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.