How HR Earns Real Influence with Jennifer McClure

Having a seat at the table doesn't automatically mean your voice shapes the conversation. So how do HR professionals become trusted advisors whose insights genuinely influence business decisions?

In this episode of the HRchat Podcast, Bill Banham is joined by Jennifer McClure, longtime HR executive, keynote speaker, founder of DisruptHR, and self-described "student of the future of work." Jennifer shares practical lessons from decades of leadership, explaining why influence—not title or attendance—is the true measure of HR's impact.

Jennifer reflects on a pivotal piece of career advice that transformed her approach to leadership: stop being the person who immediately says "no" and instead begin with curiosity. By asking, "Tell me more about what you're trying to accomplish," HR professionals can uncover better solutions, build stronger relationships with leaders, and protect both people and the business.

The conversation explores how HR can navigate difficult workplace decisions with integrity, including performance management, layoffs, bias concerns, and termination requests. Jennifer explains why empathy and accountability aren't opposing forces and how HR can advocate for respectful, evidence-based decision-making, even when conversations become uncomfortable.

Bill and Jennifer also discuss the evolving role of HR in shaping organizational culture, why some leadership challenges can't be solved with policies alone, and how workforce data—from turnover patterns to exit interviews and candidate feedback—can strengthen HR's strategic influence.

Whether you're an HR business partner, people leader, CHRO, or someone looking to expand your influence within your organization, this episode offers practical advice on becoming the trusted voice leaders turn to when the stakes are highest.

In this episode, you'll learn:

•  Why having a "seat at the table" isn't the same as having influence 
•  How curiosity helps HR become a more strategic business partner 
•  Practical ways to build trust with senior leaders 
•  How to navigate difficult employee relations decisions with integrity 
•  Why empathy and accountability can—and should—coexist 
•  How HR can use workforce data to influence business decisions 
•  The importance of moving beyond compliance toward strategic partnership 
•  Why HR has a unique opportunity to shape organizational culture and performance 

Connect with Jennifer McClure: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifermcclure/

Transcript

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Welcome And Guest Return

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts, and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media, and visit hrgazette.com.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. Hello, listeners. This is your host today, Bill Bannham. And back on the show for, I don't know, maybe like the sixth time, something like that, because she is awesome, is the wonderful, fantastic Jennifer McGrua, Chief Excitement Officer over at ThisRotHR and CEO of Unbridled Talents. Jen, how are you doing today? Thank you very much for coming back on the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

I'm doing great. I'm gonna have to start taking you with me. I need an energetic hype man to uh introduce me whenever I'm going on stage or something. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

No problem. We can talk about this. I'm always happy to carry your bag so you go to lots of exciting places. Um that was a very short introduction for you this time, Jen, uh, because you've been on the show before loads of times, and I thought I'd keep it pretty brief this this time, and instead just invite you to tell our listeners how awesome you are instead. Do you want to give that a crack for a minute?

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Sure. Who doesn't like talking about themselves? I will do my best to make it both educational and informative, in addition to uh maybe a little entertaining.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Okay, go ahead,

From HR Leader To Speaker

SPEAKER_03 1:35

please. Tell our listeners a bit about your background, um, why you're so famous, uh anything you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Oh, um, well, I am an HR practitioner still at heart. I spent almost 20 years as an HR leader and executive in the corporate world, then moved a little bit to the dark side in executive search for a little over four years. And while I was doing both of those, obviously speaking in front of groups of people, and finally one day realized I actually like to teach, to try to inspire, to motivate. Uh, and so speaking is what I found out that I really wanted to do in my life. And so in 2010, I started my own speaking business where I talk about HR strategic leadership, um, leadership in general, personal brand and influence. Those are topics that interest me. And I consider myself, I borrow this from Jerry Crispin, who's also another old timer in the space. Jerry always described himself as a student of the profession. And so I see myself now as someone who's a student of the future of work. So I'm constantly looking for people who I can learn from, uh, following, you know, resources, sites, research, studies. I spend my time kind of digging into what's happening in the future of work and try to help that make sense for the people who are the practitioners who are doing the work. But I am doing that alongside you. It's it's interesting, you know, you may have seen it a lot of chatter on LinkedIn from people who, you know, they don't want to see anybody be a keynote speaker at a conference who's not a practitioner, and they're like, you know, this celebrity doesn't have anything to say to me. And I'm like, everybody has something we can learn from. And I think anyone from a learning perspective should curate a variety of sources. So, like I said, the fact that I'm no longer a practitioner, but yet I spend my full time immersed in the work, I have a perspective that I can share with you. You should also learn from practitioners in your field. You should also learn from academics and researchers. Make sure that you're getting kind of a 360 view to your profession or what's going on in the world. And don't be so narrowly focused on I only want to learn from people who are doing the same thing that I do. So that's a pep pee that I ended on there for you.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

Very good. Uh okay, next question for you is one that I'm terribly proud of. Um, but it might crash and burn. Let's find out, listeners. It goes like this. Jen, is there a question you've never been asked in an interview that you've always wished someone would ask? What's the topic or insight you believe people should be coming to you for, but somehow they keep missing a trick? And maybe I've been guilty of this on in our previous conversations.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, well, I'll try to make you proud with my answer. Um, I've been asked a lot of questions and sometimes caught off guard. Someone asked

Why HR Shapes Every Job

SPEAKER_00 4:32

me recently in a podcast, kind of what was the through line through my career? Um, if there was like one thing to kind of sum it up, and I'd never really been asked that before. And I thought that was uh uh an interesting question. So, you know, and my answer to him was that from when I started in HR, which was called personnel back then, I have always believed that human resources is the most important role in every organization because it's the only job or the only function that has the opportunity to have influence and impact over every person in the organization. So I'm almost four decades into my career and I still see that. Everybody's a special snowflake and everybody's important. We understand that it's more about, I believe it's important from the sense of the opportunity to influence and impact. So, you know, I think maybe a question that people don't ask me is more diving into why I believe that or giving examples of that rather than either dismissing my comment off the top, you know, because they're like, oh, I work in accounting and we're the most important. And the people in sales are like, well, you wouldn't have anything to influence and impact if it wasn't for us. We don't need to get into that. Um, we need to all do our part, and it's important that we're all there. But I think really understanding why I believe that, um, because I still believe them, right? And if more people who, particularly HR or people, people who worked in the profession approach their work in that way, that everything I do has an impact on the people in the organization, and everything in this organization, from top-line revenue to growth to innovation, is dependent upon the people that we have and those people being developed and engaged and retaining the right talent and helping the people who grow out of their jobs either move up or on in a respectful way. There's so many important things that we do to move the business forward. And that's that is my mission in life. I'm trying to help the people leaders out there step into that opportunity because I do believe it is so great.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

There is an obvious follow-up question here around the impact of AI and what and how that's going to affect the opportunity that you've just shared. However, listeners, I promised Jen before we hit record today that we're not going to talk about AI. We're going to do our best to avoid AI. So forget about it. We'll do that another time. Um instead, uh, let's give let's give some love to another disrupt chapter.

DisruptHR Events And Local Flavor

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Regular listeners of the show will know that I um am very lucky to run a bunch of the disrupt chapters. Thank you again, Jen. Um, you are speaking, Jen, at Disrupt HR Memphis and Unum. Is that a place? Uh on August 13th. Tell me about that event. What are you excited for? Get give us the lowdown.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

On August 13th, I'm speaking in Fargo, North Dakota, at the Disrupt HR Fargo Moorhead. Um Disrupt HR, and then in September, September 22nd at the Disrupt HR Memphis. Um then October uh September 29th, I believe it is, in Kalowna, British Columbia, which is a brand new HR um or Disrupt HR community. So Kalona. Yeah, Kalowna. Okay, see. I'm gonna have to read up on how to pronounce it before I get there in America. Um so I'm thrilled whether, you know, Fargo, North Dakota. I actually have told people, I think I've spoken or done things or been invited to, you know, do something in Fargo, North Dakota more than anywhere else in the world. Uh, but I've never been to one of the Disrupt HR Fargo Morehead events, and they have been a light, you know, the same people have held the license for quite some time, and they always do a great job with their events. So this is their tenth event, and so they felt it would be nice to have me come to speak. And in Memphis, she was nice enough to invite me. This is uh, she's calling it Disrupt HR after hours and has a whole lot of stuff going on in addition to the Disrupt HR talks. So I'm excited. And then and you said it's Kelowna. Kelowna, um, since it's her first, she invited me to do that. So I'm honored anytime someone invites me to speak at their events. But I, you know, I've shared with you before. I always say, I am happy to come if you think that would be uh of interest to your audience or your team, but I do want you to know there are people in your community who have ideas that they want to share. So don't bring me because you can't, you think you can't get someone from your community. But I'm happy to come and add to the event and the excitement if if I'm offered the opportunity to do that. So I spoke in Chicago in May, um, and you know, happy to speak at any event. You know, as we were talking earlier, I got I I still think it's one of the best uh opportunities in my life, got invited to speak at Disrupt HR St. Helier, which is now Channel Islands. They hold events in St. in Jersey and Guernsey. But when he reached out to me, Simon reached out to me about licensing Jersey, I didn't know where it was. I mean, I'd heard of it, cows come from there, right? Jersey, Guernsey. Um, so I had to do, you know, Disrupt HR has allowed me to do a lot of research into learning more about geography. And I learned that, you know, it's part of it's part of the UK, but it's not, but you know, all that stuff. And so he invited me to speak um at their first event or first or second event, and he even rented a car for me, a little fiat, which I love. Um, and I was there for a couple of days, and so I got to like drive around the island, and it was 2019, and I was got out and I'm standing on the beach in Jersey looking over at Normandy, France, and thinking about what an amazing opportunity Disrupt HR has provided me to be able to learn more about our world, to share with people all over the world, to meet other people who are doing great work around the world. And I was so excited to be able to continue doing this. And then 2020 happened and we didn't go anywhere after that for a while. So, but it's it's amazing. Every Disrupt HR community has a different flavor for their events, which is what we want. We want the local organizers and license holders to put on an event that your community will love. So, you know, in Cincinnati, we know we need to get people out of there probably by 8:30 because they think traffic is bad. I don't know why, in the evening, and they want to get home on time. Uh, one of our communities in Hamburg, Germany, uh, the license holder is the university there. So they actually kind of curate people from more of an academic perspective giving their talks. And their disrupt dates are our events are from 7:30 to 9.30 in the morning, which I would find hard to disrupt at that time. But again, everyone's unique, you're different. You know, some people hold their events in pubs or small bars, and they want to have 35 people there, so it's intimate, and everybody can, you know, talk to each other and network. And then we have some cities now that are maybe on several events and they have five or six hundred people at their events. So the variety and the slight nuances and differences of all the events around the world are part of what excites me about Disrupt HR continuing to be a thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat Podcast. If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll love our articles on the HR Gazette. Learn more at HRGazette.com. And now back to the show.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

So, little insight into my life listeners. Uh, I was all set to move out to Kelowna uh in the Okanagan Valley just before the pandemic, and then I came back on vacation to the UK for six weeks. I had two mates who had wedding six weeks spot, and that's when I met my lovely other half. And uh and then uh the rest is history. Now we've got two little kids and two dogs, and I'm back in I'm back in Plighty. Otherwise, I'd be a mounty somewhere in British Columbia. That was that was the other dream.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Everything's a small world story, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Uh okay, right. Uh, I've got a couple questions now, uh, based on stalking your LinkedIn profile. Uh what you've been up to most recently on LinkedIn, what you've been sharing. Uh, please bear with me. Uh the questions are quite long.

Attendance Versus Real Influence

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Uh, here we go. First one. Uh Jen, in a recent LinkedIn post, you said that a seat at the table is just attendance, and that real influence comes when people genuinely want you in the room because of the value that you bring. You also shared how a manager's feedback early in your career prompted you to stop being an HR person who simply said no and instead become the person who asked better questions. Here comes the question. Uh, how did that mindset shift change your career? And what practical advice would you give to HR pros who are still struggling to move from policy enforcer to trusted strategic advisor?

SPEAKER_00 13:23

I'm I'm so glad I got that feedback in a uh caring and supportive way that I was the person nobody wanted in the room because I was the one that would sit there and let them banter around ideas and argue things out and then come to, hey, this is what we think we should do. And then I'd raise my head and be like, you can't do that because it's against our policy, or that we'll be sued, or you know, whatever. So yeah, you wouldn't want somebody like that in the room because they're taking all the air out of the room, first of all, and second of all, they're they're not adding to the conversation. So thankfully, my boss, um, either someone gave him that feedback or he noticed, but he came and told me very kindly and gently that I might need to rethink that. It wasn't like do this or you'll get fired. It was like, if if you truly want to be in the room, which I did, valued that opportunity to be on the at part of the leadership team very much, um, then you need to find a way that people want you to be there. And that involves helping them, if they have an idea and what they want to do is against our policy or you know, is going to get us sued, instead of saying that, saying, tell me more about what you're trying to accomplish. Help me understand what you want to happen so that maybe I can offer some perspective on maybe a different way that we could get there. So changing my brain from being the risk management person and the keeper of the rules and the policies to challenging myself. I'm I'm competitive in the sense that I like a challenge, even if it's an internal challenge, challenging myself to find a way to help the person accomplish what they're trying to accomplish without saying no. And I think a good example of my friend Chris Dunn, who's now the CHR at Marriott Corporation, um, you know, he was an early blogger that I followed, a HR capitalist, and he's written a couple of great books. And one of the things that either he wrote on his blog at one point or in one of his books, I'll never forget, where he talked about, you know, the common wisdom is for HR people to be to say yes to whatever managers are doing because we're, quote, a support function. And he kind of talks about it in the same way I do. It's it's to say yes, but to get there in the right way. So let's say your manager comes to you and they say, I want to fire, you know, Susie Q, who's in every protected class, you know, in the US. She's of a certain age, she's of a certain race, a certain ethnic, she's all those things. And you, the HR person, know that you've seen no documentation that Susie's not performing. You know, so some HR people are like, okay, here, you know, to fire her, we need to call a meeting, get her in the room, call her, let's fire her. And then that creates, you know, eventual chaos. A better way to handle that is to say, tell me more about why you want to fire Susie. You know, what's happening? What discussions have you had with her? Okay, I can help you get to where we can fire Susie, but we're not there yet. In order to do that, here's what we need to do to be fair to her, here's what I'm gonna need from you. So understanding the end goal is that Susie may not be a right fit for the job, um, or you know, her and her manager don't work well together, but helping the manager actually get to their conclusion, but doing it in the right way. And again, that's not to say that if it's absolutely the wrong decision to fire Susie because she is a good performer and her manager doesn't, I have to also have insight into that. But it just, you know, to your question, it it changed me in a way that work actually became in some ways more fun. Every day is an exploration into helping people accomplish what they need to accomplish, but doing it in a different way, a better way, a way that's more compliant, that you know, protects our employer brand, that helps us to treat people with respect. Um, and I think eventually leaders, while they they may not see the wizardry behind the curtain if you're doing that, they appreciate that much more when they say, This is a person who's actually trying to help me. Um, you know, this is not someone that's trying to prevent me from doing what I want to do. This is someone who's trying to help me, and I'm going to go to them and ask their advice more. So I've long told HR people, even when, you know, seat at the table, I think it's thankfully enough people have uh called that out that it's not something that was mentioned. But, you know, there was a period of time where that was every HR person's goal was to have that seat at the table. And I'm like, both myself and so many HR leaders that I've either coached or companies where I've been invited to come in and consult on how their HR can be more effective. The HR leader has the seat at the table. They're on the org chart purporting into the CEO. And again, they sit there and they take notes in meetings, but they don't contribute, or they do provide all the stoppers along the way, and people will find ways not to have them in the room. So that's why I say seat at the table is just attendance. Uh, you want to have a voice and you want to have a voice that people value. So even if you aren't on the org chart reporting to the CEO and you haven't yet gotten into the weekly invites to the leadership team meeting, wouldn't it be amazing if they're actually discussing a topic and they say, Hey, can we stop the meeting for a minute? Go get Jennifer because we want to get her perspective on this. That would thrill me more every day than just attending the meetings. So having a voice, having a perspective, being respective, respected, developing influence, that's what HR remember, remember, we're the people who have the most opportunity to have influence and impact. So we have to develop the character, the relationships, the trust, um, the ability to influence others in order to, again, step into that opportunity and take the most advantage of it. So I get excited about helping now, you know, from the great coaching and advice that was given to me that completely changed how I pursued my work. I am spending my time trying to help HR leaders who maybe they already have that seat at the table again, but they're not using it effectively or to their most advantage. Or to be fair to some HR people, that's the system they were trained up in, and that's what their leadership is asking of them. They don't want their ideas, they don't want their influence, they don't want their impact, they want them to manage the risk and to keep the policies forefront. For some people, that's a perfect match. The HR person wants to be the policy police, and that's what the leadership wants of HR. But where I get to hear from HR leaders is when my leadership won't let me have more influence, or they won't let me, you know, uh be in the room. What can I do about that? And my answer to them is often probably not what they want to hear, instead of just, oh, I'm sorry, that sucks for you. Um instead, I say, what have you done to show them the value of your expertise? How have you made a business case for the fact that they, again, they need you in the room because you're making ideas better? Um, and if they can convince me that they've tried all those things, you know, they pitched some ideas, they've tried to do that, but they're okay, fine, then you need to decide if this is the right opportunity for you because you're not going to ever be given that opportunity to have influence and impact. Or if you're happy doing the work that you are secretly, but somebody told you you need to ask for a seat at the table, but you really don't want it, then maybe you're in the right place. But I think leadership, it's the same as, you know, people like to managers like to go to their employees and say, you can't do this because HR said, and often HR's like, I never even had that discussion with you, right? I think there are a lot of, unfortunately, HR people out there still today who blame their leadership for not allowing them to be more innovative, creative, to disrupt when they haven't even uh presented the opportunity to their leadership to see what they can do. They just are comfortable sitting in that spot of I'm not allowed to, rather than pushing and saying, if you let me do this, here's what I can do to add more value to the business, make us better, help our leaders achieve their goals, develop influence. You know, John Maxwell says it better than everybody else about, you know, leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. If you are a leader, your single biggest lever to be able to get what you want and to help other people get what they're want, what they want is to develop your influence. And that's a function of relationships, trust, um, involvement. If you should focus on developing influence before you focus on developing anything else.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

Okay. I was gonna throw another one of my uh questions at you regarding another post you've done. But actually, I just want to picket a couple of things you mentioned there, because this is terribly interesting. All right, let's go back.

Integrity, Fairness, And Using Data

SPEAKER_03 22:00

the example of Susie. Okay. Um the leader leader's desired outcome is for Susie to be out of the door. Uh you as the HR person asks clever questions around uh you said something like, you know, um what has led us to get to a conclusion where we feel like Susie might need that to be exited or what words to that effect. There's a process there. This is all part of the HR training. I guess my question is who's the who's the most likely what's the most likely scenario to get yourself at that top table where you are making uh uh the right decisions influencing those leaders you're ingratiated with those leaders is it the person who does what they're told and ultimately makes sure that Susie is out the door or is it the HR leader who follows that process and gets to a point and says you know what you're completely wrong Susie's awesome um and you you don't recognise for example that Susie is a conduit and she she connects all these other people or Susie's got all of this uh knowledge that uh if she goes that goes with her or you don't understand that Susie is uh is a brand advocate and she's all over glass door in places saying wonderful things whate whatever it might be you know right well who who who who who's the but what's the best approach to get to the top table and and and and be able to influence people is it is it integrity or is it I guess doing what your boss tells you to do uh I I don't think those things are mutually or have to be one one left or right.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

I don't think you have to have to choose between integrity and doing what the boss wants you to do. There are absolutely I mean we're dealing with humans here so there are absolutely humans that are terrible leaders and terrible managers and I can't save them all. So it may be that again that boss just maybe they're maybe they're racist and they you know don't say that out loud but they just don't want to work with this person and or maybe they are just a bad leader and they don't feel like they owe anyone an explanation or the opportunity to improve my first reaction to that is you know again can I save them? Can I develop them? Can I develop enough trust with them that they can see the positive results from you know approaching things in the right way. How you know I've had numerous examples in my career where absolutely not the person's terrible manager. We have a situation where an employee and I can think of one in particular employees just they want them out the door more than they want to breathe but the employee is doing nothing wrong. And what I did in this particular example that I um you know I'm thinking of the VP just of marketing just kept coming back going she needs to go and I'm like well before she has to go we need to understand why she so he basically would manufacture ways for her to not be successful so that he had the documentation and you know for a lot of factors we did sit down and have that conversation with her in my office where he said you know you're being fired. I've talked to you three times already and today's your last day and then I started saying and here's how and she literally turned her wrath on me and she's like you have done nothing in this why are you even speaking to me you have not been involved in this process I've never heard from you you've never come and talked to me I don't want to hear from you today either. Again another difficult wake up call was my role is not just to work with the manager, it's to understand the situation fully. Why didn't I walk over there and talk to her and understand her perspective and how in a way she was being mistreated. I was busy it was a turnaround situation and I was busy and that was my fault because I had an obligation again what she saw as the role of HR was also someone who would be her advocate. And had I done my job well, that situation probably could have been handled differently you know I might not have ever gotten over his biases or whatever I don't even know why he didn't like her. But maybe I could have suggested that she be transferred to a different department or take on another opportunity in the company or help facilitate that. But because I never went and talked to her and went beyond trying to work with him through what I thought was the right process, we ended up with someone who was really hurt uh and you know probably never said a good word about our company or me ever again. And that was all well deserved um feedback. So I think there's you know again integrity is yeah we follow the rules but um I also have to care. And if I care about you know people will have the arguments about HR is only there to protect the company and then some HR people they well no I see my job again I don't see those things as mutually exclusive it makes the job harder because I do have to protect the company but if you know I also need to understand the situation and see how I can work within it to make sure that everyone's treated fairly with respect that we're doing the right thing for the right reasons. And I'm also it let's say again the manager is just a terrible manager and you know has all these biases and everything else then I need to be talking to that person's manager too you know and often they're like well they're a great performer they get results whatever okay well we need to look at the whole picture here if they're getting results but the turnover in their department is three times higher than every department and again they're affecting our ability to be able to hire in the organization I have to I can't just say that I have to be able to bring the data and say here's the turnover in this person's department versus the turnover in every other department from the exit interviews here's what we're hearing about them as a leader versus what we're hearing about other leaders. Here's how it's impacting the fact that when I have to hire for your department uh and I'm talking to people in the interviews they say they don't want to work in that department. You know so I have to the job of HR is is very complex and there's so much data that we have access to that we don't use effectively. Instead we just go to a manager and say hey your manager is treating this employee bad do something and the manager may or may not disagree because again maybe they're making their job easier by getting quote results but I have to think about what data do I need to bring to this discussion so that I can show this person that what I'm saying makes sense that this is the right way to handle this etc. So again all that that type of work excites me the the complexities of figuring out okay you want to get rid of Susie is it because you're not a great leader is it because Susie's not a good performer how can I understand the whole scenario that's happening here? What role can I play to make sure that we end up in the right place for both parties if Susie just shouldn't be working here in that job how can we let her go respectfully how can we make sure she feels heard like she had an opportunity to improve how can the manager see how that benefits him or her to do things the right way both with the other people on their team and also with maybe helping some people turn things around there are just a lot of factors at play for HR leaders again with great with great uh opportunity of the most influence and impacts also comes great responsibility to handle that with care.

How To Connect And Wrap

SPEAKER_03 29:16

I believe the correct quote Jen is with great power comes great responsibility according to Spider-Man's uncle okay right very good uh I had so many more questions for you but um hey listeners guess what jen and I have been talking for 90 minutes already today including including this they're only getting the value of 20 or 30 exactly um so just one last question before I I I do let you get over the rest of your day Jen um and that's how can our listeners connect with you and learn more about you if you want to connect with me you can find me on LinkedIn uh if you put in Jennifer McClure I sure hope I come up first I've been there a long time um but on LinkedIn my website is jenniferclure.net and of course anything about disrupthr could be found at disrupthr.co. Rock and roll I would uh particularly recommend checking out uh let's see uh forward slash London that's a good one forward slash Cambridge that's another one Manchester but uh no they're all good pages please do check them out uh do you have a cloud that just leaves me to say once again for this particular interview until I bother you again probably in about six months' time thank you very much for being my guest and thank you for the opportunity to talk with your community uh listeners as always until next time happy working thanks for listening to the HR chat show if you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe and listen to some of the hundreds of episodes published by HR Gazette and remember for what's new in the world of work subscribe to the show follow us on social media and visit hrgazette.com